Are they fooling us ?

[ScRePt]

Well, its been around 3 years i am a member of these forums, and back then it had
about 1000 members and TV3D 6.0

1 year later, there was TV3D 6.2 and about 1500 members, and i think there was a
discussion that about 800 of them were inactive both to the forums and development
+ less than 100 were registered customers. Also the development of 6.5 began ...

Now, 2 years later, there are 5000 members, definately more than 500 have purchased
the product, and there is still 6.5 version under development, without updating the
topic at all.

My question is, are they kidding us? They invented the "closed beta" story in order
to get more money ? it's been more than 2 years, and its a proffessional project
not any open-source to dump it.

And if i am wrong, why they didnt release it as open beta ? over the last months i've
seen growing projects on 6.5 and even utilities which means the engine is pretty stable !

I just wanted to see your opinion on this matter ... does TV3D's "closed beta" marketing
thinks we are fools ?

-ScRePt-

[dazkona]

There is a topic on the private beta talking about something simillar: http://www.truevision3d.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13106

[Zaknafein]

Hehe, if it's in the private beta section he won't be able to see it.

[dazkona]

Zak, he have bought the license, so i think he can :-)

[jlucard]

I was under the impression that the beta testers (I am not one I am afraid) did get to see progress everyonce in a while. Maybe not every week or every month perhaps but there is progres, isn't it? If this is the case I think there is no need to worry... As for the closed beta thing, it can work both ways - give you a reason to buy TV3D, or give you a reason not to buy TV3D (I proposed TV3D as an option for a project, but the rest of the people involved decided against it because of the "closed" part - show us a demo they said). Anyway my point is if the whole closed beta idea was conceived in order to pursuade people to buy the engine (which I believe is not the case) then it is not working particularly well.

[tweakbox]

I was under the impression that the beta testers (I am not one I am afraid) did get to see progress everyonce in a while. Maybe not every week or every month perhaps but there is progres, isn't it? If this is the case I think there is no need to worry... As for the closed beta thing, it can work both ways - give you a reason to buy TV3D, or give you a reason not to buy TV3D (I proposed TV3D as an option for a project, but the rest of the people involved decided against it because of the "closed" part - show us a demo they said). Anyway my point is if the whole closed beta idea was conceived in order to pursuade people to buy the engine (which I believe is not the case) then it is not working particularly well.

Closed beta is a standard part of every major software development project.  It wasn't "devised" by the team.  It's a logical step to allow people who paid you for your project to have access to the latest stuff.  If some one wants to buy a license to get access to the beta, that's their choice.  No one is forcing anyone to buy a license.

And the idea that the devs are fooling us is stupid.  Don't you think you'd be hearing a lot of trouble being reported if people were paying for the license and not getting anything?

And honestly, yea, it's been in closed beta for a year or more now.  However, it wasn't a complete product when closed beta started, not by any means.  It's smart to do it that way, to debug in stages, rather than finish the whole thing and then send it off to the masses.  Doing it that way, especially with a small team like they have, would end in a complete mess with bug reports coming in all over for everything, rather than testing one part and getting it working, then moving to the next as they did.

If all of this ranting and raving everyone is doing will have the team release 6.5 earlier than they planned, it will most likely be for the worse.  Forcing them to rush to complete things will only result in a rushed product, and the engine is turning out much too good so far to have that happen.

[ScRePt]

Well, I do not have a licence and I do not intend to buy one because I am not a
proffessional (yet) developper, and I just dont need one.

When I said "closed beta" is proffitable, i meant that non proffessional developpers are
buying it, while proffessionals dont, probably because of what tweakbox said about the
demo.

I just believe that the closed tesing part should be finished months ago, but haven't
because the team is earning more money this way.

I've seen demos, videos, shots of TV3D 6.5, which convinced me that the product is
reliable.

Dont you think that the marketing management is delaying the 6.5 open beta release
on purpose ?
Are they underestimating our intelligence THAT much ?

-ScRePt-

[pizzayoyo]

Although I agree that they are making more money from closed beta (I myself wouldn't have bought a license if 6.5 was out of beta, but eventually i would have once my project was done), closed beta is helping getting bugs out and getting new features in, and there are still many minor and major bugs that need to be dealt with before release.

So the reason that the engine is still in closed beta is not because of money, but finishing the product.

[newborn]

Are they underestimating our intelligence THAT much ?

after reading two rants from you, I find that:

1) you have no rights to complain

2) you have no clue what you're talking about

3) your intelligence is questionable

nuff said

[ScRePt]

@ newborn
Well, since you chose to judge me personally, couldn't you at least state some proof
along with your charges ?

1) I have the right to complain since I am a long term, legimate user of the product
2) ?
3) I've opened the topic for users (licenced or not) to state their opinion on the subject
( as dazkona,Zaknafein,jlucard,tweakbox,pizzayoyo did) , not on me (as you did) ...

-ScRePt-

[Raine]

Are they underestimating our intelligence THAT much ?

after reading two rants from you, I find that:

1) you have no rights to complain

2) you have no clue what you're talking about

3) your intelligence is questionable

nuff said

?

[dazkona]

newborn, ScRePt is not very zen, and his writings are really angry and hard, but I think that a respectful remark is better...

[micmanos]

I think this thread has a very limited life span ...

[Raine]

I think this thread has a very limited life span ...

Right, because trying to turn it into something actually constructive is a rather hard task. Despite the OP's "lack of zen", this could have been a way to discuss about TV's situation publicly. But hey. That's the way these things go, it starts like a little spark, you get an explosion.

[newborn]

... Despite the OP's "lack of zen", this could have been a way to discuss about TV's situation publicly

Its currently being discussed in a 3 pages thread in beta section and everyone is keeping it civil and respectful. As far as i can remember, no one mentionned that the TV3D team was taking their customers for granted nor for idiots.

Well, since you chose to judge me personally, couldn't you at least state some proof along with your charges ?

I used the same words you used for presenting the TV3D team and you don't seem to like it... I wonder why.

A comment like this:

does TV3D's "closed beta" marketing thinks we are fools ?

...and a comment like this:

I just believe that the closed tesing part should be finished months ago, but haven't because the team is earning more money this way.

Really pisses me off.

1) Who do you think you are to spray the TV3D team? What have you brought to the community to even have the slightest right to rant so loud? Once you'll run into licensing problem, maybe you'll have to the right to talk like you do. But until then, I'd rather see you at your desk coding one of the best community tool ever.

2) TV3D has no marketing department. The TV3D team is made of 4 people! Its not a multi-million compagny with 65 employees and 7 departments one for finance, one for publicity, one for coding... and one for marketing

3) Of course TV3D is supposed to make money! Why else would Sylvain, John and Arli would be coding up to 5am just before going to classes or going to work? You think that they are stressing out for no reason, just for the fun of it? Stating that they are earning money isn't bad. Stating that they are earning money by fooling us, I find it rather radical.

Are they underestimating our intelligence THAT much ?

Really, I have no words for this! I'm in awe. The TV3D guys have been working their arses so hard over the months for you, me and all of us. How can you just...

bah nevermind, this is a lost case anyways. By reading my post, I see I'm putting oil over the flames more than extinguishing anything.

[Elurahu]

Definently there's nothing wrong with making money. Money gives the developers a reward for doing what they are doing, and as newborn said getting up early to get some work done. I think the reason for all these "What the hell is going on" threads popping up, is the fact that it's been a while since we've seen any activity and I do understand that. I think we're all wanting the same thing and that's getting the best engine we can, and if that requires me to pay some money to the developers then be it. The engine is cheap enough as is.

[amiral_l]

Donations have the same effect. You can donate if the software is right after using it.
Other solution is to release a light version, marketing have many solution others than to pay for a beta.

As i see some ppl are ready to pay for a beta then we can consider these ppl will do the same like donation. And other ppl, which dont want to pay for a beta announce since 2 years will have something.

But TV3D do what they want. If they lost some ppl, this is their problem. Me, as a new comer here i regret this strategy but i didn't expect more.
I didn't want to be a fanboy who is blind, and i didn't want to scream my desesperate.

I take what i can take and play with it and when i will have most of my proof of concept i will investigate to put more bucks in TV3D or anywhere else.

[darqSHADOW]

Since I posted last in the beta thread, I will post this publically now to let people know what the plan is.

First, I just got done with my vacation, which was SORELY needed after the busy time of the year at work.  Unfortunately it got extended a bit, because my grandfather passed away and I had to deal with taking my two daughters to their first funeral ever.  This meant a lot of "daddy time" was required -- but that has now all passed.

I have a little catching up to do with life still, but I will be busting my ass over the next 2 weeks to complete a major upgrade to the website.  This website upgrade is THE prelude to open beta for 6.5.  It is a required piece of the pie.

Now, just to let everyone know, before they go haywire during release.  This is an accelerated release schedule, which means I am not satisified yet, but I am doing this because everyone is getting antsy.  What does this mean for the users?  This means TVO will not be completed for the 6.5 release -- it will have to come in a later patch.  This also means we will be releasing with limited tutorials and docs, as well, since those are the final pieces that get written once a product is finalized.  It also means there could still be bugs in the engine core -- which are now harder and harder to fix because of the size and complexity of the core code now.

I always swore I would never give in to the non-licensed masses -- simply because they are getting the product for free, and therefore have contributed nothing to us to maintain the company and keep the development going.  

I just believe that the closed tesing part should be finished months ago, but haven't
because the team is earning more money this way.

If you feel this is the way I do business, then I suggest that you move on.  The ONLY reason 6.5 is not out is because I felt it was not ready -- I do not like to release incomplete products, let alone products with bugs.  But as I said, I'll wrap up our few outstanding issues and release the product -- just remember when the complaining starts about any issues that the community wanted the early release.

DS

[amiral_l]

This is a special marketing approach, but this is yours and you're the master.

[Raine]

I, for one, would like to wait a little more and get a "full" open beta. I get the feeling is a bit pointless for a developer to receive a tool without its full potential.
Anyway, with that being said, I'm still aware that some customers have business deadlines to meet.

I don't know. It feels like choosing between a bursting open beta release and a slow patching (because of the high output of support requests, bugfixing, people complaining), or a steady open beta release with a regular patching.

These are my two cents. I trust the devs' work - it is in their own interest to give customers a quality product.