XNA - Truevision

[GMS0012]

what is better?

what has more features?

what is easier?

which has better docs???


Thx

[freeflyklown]

Hi,

welcome to TV3D. I am new myself (after a long absence), but i can tell you TV3D gives you A LOT that you first would have to create in XNA. TV3D is liek a higher level to XNA, but it is not built on top of it. Maybe later the devs do this, who knows? Right now you have a lot already done for you in TV3D, specially 6.5Beta.....just for example the powerful TVLandscape object. All this you had to code yourself in XNA...there is no XNALandscape so far.
So i would say TV3D is easier than XNA in the sense that much is already created and ready to use for you.
Hope this helps ;-)

[phether]

They are differerent Beasts, both may eat grass but are not exactly the same.  :twisted:

TrueVision3D is a 3D Engine/Library (depends on how you want to define it) Built on top of DirectX. And is pretty much ready to go with loads of features and capabilities.

XNA is more of a API/Framework type system that a ENGINE would need to be built upon.  The devs could build TrueVision3D on top of XNA and have the Engine appearance to you the end user remain mostly the same.

XNA itself is like TrueVision3D though in the fact that it is a Layer of Abstraction between you (the programmer) and the DirectX low level API (i.e. they both eat grass) and you can write games and 3D Applications with both of them.  

In general TrueVision3D would be quicker to develop an App for, but may not suit your particular needs as it is a more general 3D Engine.  With XNA you could (if you had time/resources/desire/ambition....) write the 3D Engine that You would want.  Of course, you could have done that with DirectX as well.

cheers,
Paul

[amadrias]

The most simple definition for XNA that I could give anyone would just be:

XNA framework = Managed DirectX replacement.

[dudeman]

When XNA first was released, I was very interested to see what it had to offer, as I thought it definitely had some promise. It does. Once I played around with it, it became quite evident what it is and that realization inspired me to immediately purchase a Truevision license this past December despite the fact that 6.5 is still in closed beta.

As stated previously, it is a low level framework, but it is at a much higher level than even managed DirectX. While it is way easier to deal with, and one can use C# to develop in, there is a great deal of work that must be done to get you to the point that Truevision is at. While this may not be a bad thing to some, it still is a whole lot of conception, testing and debugging to get your tools together.

The major thing that I noticed in my experiments is the graphics card support. XNA supports shader model 2.0, with a minimum of 1.1(?) I believe. I was able to get it to work on my desktop, but not my laptop with the integrated crappy card. To me, this means that if you decide to write games in XNA, then your target audience must have a decent graphics card. If your target audience is casual gamers on lower end machines, then XNA is decidedly not for you. Of course, by the time you finish the development life cycle of your game, your audience could be up to speed, but based on my experience folks are still gravitating toward the cheaper machines with crappy graphics cards. Truevision works well on those crappy cards, or at least on the machines I've tested.
Dude

[zwiglm]

please move to engine-comparison forum.

thx,
martin

[phether]

When XNA first was released, I was very interested to see what it had to offer, as I thought it definitely had some promise. It does. Once I played around with it, it became quite evident what it is and that realization inspired me to immediately purchase a Truevision license this past December despite the fact that 6.5 is still in closed beta.

As stated previously, it is a low level framework, but it is at a much higher level than even managed DirectX. While it is way easier to deal with, and one can use C# to develop in, there is a great deal of work that must be done to get you to the point that Truevision is at. While this may not be a bad thing to some, it still is a whole lot of conception, testing and debugging to get your tools together.

The major thing that I noticed in my experiments is the graphics card support. XNA supports shader model 2.0, with a minimum of 1.1(?) I believe. I was able to get it to work on my desktop, but not my laptop with the integrated crappy card. To me, this means that if you decide to write games in XNA, then your target audience must have a decent graphics card. If your target audience is casual gamers on lower end machines, then XNA is decidedly not for you. Of course, by the time you finish the development life cycle of your game, your audience could be up to speed, but based on my experience folks are still gravitating toward the cheaper machines with crappy graphics cards. Truevision works well on those crappy cards, or at least on the machines I've tested.
Dude

I have a commercial app out with TV3D 6.2.  (original release was 3ish years ago) and even with TV3D 6.2 there are crapp graphics cards out there that will have problems. (Intel 845/850 etc..)  Especially if the user had updated from Windows XP to Windows XP sp2 which automatically installed DirectX 9c for them.  These cards don't support Hardware TnL which (depending on what you are doing) can cause your Game/App to either a)Not work or b) Work very poorly to the point it doesn't work at all

Even so some newer Integrated Graphics cards will have problems as they were designed for Business Applications (Spreadsheets, word processors etc...) Not 3D applications.  Basicaly They will run in Software mode...fun fun  Also remember that 6.2 is DirectX 8 based.  6.5 is DirectX 9 based and uses SHADERS. So if the Integrated Grahpics card does not support Shaders (not sure of the min. version 1.0/1.1 for 6.5) Then it too will have problems with TrueVision 3D 6.5


<edit> Oh yeah, and this should be in the engine comparison forum. I agree</edit>
-paul

[dudeman]

Even so some newer Integrated Graphics cards will have problems as they were designed for Business Applications (Spreadsheets, word processors etc...) Not 3D applications.  Basicaly They will run in Software mode...fun fun  Also remember that 6.2 is DirectX 8 based.  6.5 is DirectX 9 based and uses SHADERS. So if the Integrated Grahpics card does not support Shaders (not sure of the min. version 1.0/1.1 for 6.5) Then it too will have problems with TrueVision 3D 6.5

Good point. I think the machines I tested 6.5 on had at least 1.0. Definitely something to consider.

 Oh yeah, and this should be in the engine comparison forum. I agree
-paul

Yeah. I agree as well. Should be moved.
Dude

[phether]

Even so some newer Integrated Graphics cards will have problems as they were designed for Business Applications (Spreadsheets, word processors etc...) Not 3D applications.  Basicaly They will run in Software mode...fun fun  Also remember that 6.2 is DirectX 8 based.  6.5 is DirectX 9 based and uses SHADERS. So if the Integrated Grahpics card does not support Shaders (not sure of the min. version 1.0/1.1 for 6.5) Then it too will have problems with TrueVision 3D 6.5

Good point. I think the machines I tested 6.5 on had at least 1.0. Definitely something to consider.

 Oh yeah, and this should be in the engine comparison forum. I agree
-paul

Yeah. I agree as well. Should be moved.
Dude

I know the latest Intel Extreme (950 or something like that , can't quiet recall) does support Shaders 2.0

[GMS0012]

but XNA has one big advantage for me..

they do have good docs...

i need something to learn..

truevision has some code examples... but that is all

[darqSHADOW]

XNA will have tons of docs and books written about it, but then again you'll need them to do anything.  

I have a comparison test I'm writing, same result with both XNA and TV3D 6.5.  So far the XNA version is already 300 lines of code, and does nowhere near what the 30 line TV3D app does.  So far that's a 10x increase in code lines written -- and I'm sure it'll be more by the end (and TV3D also has built in render paths for all hardware, I have to handle more of that by hand yet on XNA).

DS

[GMS0012]

i know that truevision is a great "engine"..

but how can i learn it...

the docs are old and very poor.. tutorial pages are not available..

the code examples does not cover everything..

i want to start with 2d.. i found no information about it...

i really would by tv3d.. but first i need stuff to learn...

[GMS0012]

by the way.. can i combine windows forms with tv3d in one form???

with xna this is not possible?!

[phether]

by the way.. can i combine windows forms with tv3d in one form???

with xna this is not possible?!

Yes you can. When you initialize the Truevision3D Engine it asks for a Handle
Pass it the hanlde of a picturbox or canvas and it will work fine.

And XNA can work with WinForms as well. Just not the way it is laid out for you with Game Studio Express.  You have to do some 'lower level' work yourself.  There are postings in the XNA forums regarding.

[dudeman]

If you're just trying to learn, then the obvious choice is XNA with the Visual Studio C# Express. I'd go look at www.xnadevelopment.com which has some starter tutorials and such. If you don't know C#, then I would go here first for the basics: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/easytolearn/

Once you've got your feet wet and have played a bit and have exhausted all the tutorials out there, you'll come to understand what you have to do to make a decent 3D app with it. Hopefully by that time 6.5 will be out and complete with demo and docs. At that point, you will be able to compare and really will not have wasted a whole lot time as your C# will be better and your understanding of engine development will have increased. Should you not like TV6.5 or it is still not out, then you'll already be established in XNA and can continue building your engine. My guess is, you'll see just how much more you can do in 6.5 and will gladly dump XNA.

[GMS0012]

hi all...

i am not new to programming. i can programm with c#. but i dont have experiences with 3d game programming.
i did program little 2d games with xna.

can anybody give me some code examples of

- how to load a tile with tv3d
- how to rotate and move it??

does tv3d support AI?

[potato]

I'm not familiar with XNA, I assume by "tile" you mean a 2D image.

All of TV3D's 2D functions are contained within the Screen2DImmediate class, and textures/images contained within the TVTextureFactory class.

Here's a bit of rough pseudocode to load an image:

Code:

int textureIndex = textureFactory.LoadTexture("c:\\someimage.jpg", ... );

And while rendering...

Code:

screen2DImmediate.DrawTextureRotated(textureIndex, posX, posY, rotAng, ... );

And yes, TV supports AI, though if you're looking for ready-to-go, out-of-box-working AI you're not going to find it. TV supports the pathfinding routines and generates nodemaps for you, but the logic has to be done on your own.

[GMS0012]

that sounds good...

what kind of docu is available for 6.5???

does exist a list of all classes and their parameters???

[TMichael]

Hey GMS,

I had the same question about 6.5 documentation. Here is everything I found to date:

First, I recently received the following as part of an email response to my question about 6.5 documentation:

Currently I have only released the class breakdown for 6.5's documentation, however there is quite a bit of information available on the forum to help you get started.  Tutorials and samples from the community are all over the place, and I am sure once 6.5 is in Open Prerelease you will see a lot of code released ... Most users (especially those with 6.2 experience) will have no problem making the jump to 6.5. Some of the more advanced features have very clear samples, and there have been a LOT of shaders released by the community as well. (Very advanced techniques are being used daily in the beta forum.)

Next, Javin is in the process of writing a book about game programming with TV3D 6.5 and was kind of enough to release the first few chapters to the community for review and critique. While the book focuses on VB programming, the 6.5 concepts it uses can easily be translated to any of the other available languages. Have a look here: http://www.truevision3d.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13722

And last, here is a repost from Darq about the official 6.5 documentation:

#1 - 6.5 will have full documentation, including multiple chapters in a manual to get users started in each language. The art pipeline will be fully documented, and some of the more advanced features touched upon. All of the tools will have descriptions, and how-to manuals.

#2 - 6.5 will come complete with a full set of tutorials, for every standard language we support. (C++, C#, VB.Net, VB, Delphi)

#3 - 6.5 will come complete with a generic framework for each language, so you can quickly get up and running, without having to figure out which objects do what. (Even though that is fully explained in the API reference.)

#4 - The wiki will provide more advanced tutorials for 6.5, including how to achieve some of the more complex effects. It will be an ever growing resource, and when you figure something new and cool out, it helps to explain there how you did it, so others can learn as well.

My impression is that there is more than enough information out there to get started with 6.5 (including the class breakdown you asked about),  and there is also much to look forward to in (hopefully) the near future.

Cheers,
Tim

[GMS0012]

can you make the class overview public? i am interested in it...