What engine for a cRPG project....

[Borys Pomianek]

Hello, iam new here and would like to ask the Proffesional's here to help me chose an engine for my project and/or tools.

Iam a student in an art school ( OSSP in Gdynia, Poland ) and together with traditional artists and miusicians i started a cRPG project for Windows ( and maby mac and linux ).

We have strong "content" creation skills but only i am capable of programming and that is aur biggest problem.
Appart from learning programming i buy'd some books about 3d game development.
After i read about the theories i started my own engine project but as  soon as difficult mathematics comed into play i stopd.
As i new there were many engines for indie's i started to search the web and read about those. Finally i have found like 4 suitable:
Torgue
Game studio
Nebula
Truevision 3d

First i tried Game studio proffesional version, ( i know iam really bad to get a free copy but it was only to test ) read olmost the whole manual and make some small things with it.
my expierience and "think about's":
very expensive comparing to other, about 900$
very easy, newbie-saving level editor capable of creating the hole game using gui
really bad model editor, the models look terible and its really not a need
bad script editor, its really not a need and it has stupid gui
there is no source and thats a big minus
easy script language but no good tutorials for it.
good and very easy documentation as whole
some scripts on the start but usfull only for script learning becouse you cant make a real project using those
good indoor engine but not so fast
water looks terible
i dint use the physics engine becouse it slows down the thing a lot ( you have to turn it on from script but thats not a problem )
outdoor engine....same as water ;/
Lights are good and shading too but its not a shader driven engine
only omni lights ( no spot or directional lights in the editor or any other )
can use dlls
Finally: Its a good "game maker" but its not powerfull enought on the start to create anything with lots of outdoor ares and the work needed for a really good project on this is olmost the same as with other engines, i mean that the whole scripts with default actions are not good for anything than testing or "look mom i made a game" and dlls are a need couse there is no source and the c-script is not as fast and powerfull. Personally i would rather like to programm the hole game in c++ ( that would help me learn c++ ) than learn c-script wich dosent seem to be esiear ( an operator is still an operator and such... )and for sure is not as fast.
So now its in my trash

Torgue engine was the seccond i tryed.
experience:
WoW what a big and cool website and community, big +
The fps demo is nice, it has cool outdoor and nice indoor and is fast enought.
There is source available, another +
it costs 100 $ so that is nice
there is no level editor, insteed you use quark, that is not soo good as with GS but it supports many types of lights and there is many tutorials for it on the web.
there is torgue script and lots of code snippets and tutorials on the web so i like it
Its not a shader driven engine too, but there is TSE in development and cost 200 for those that buyd torgue and from what i heard its easy to port things from tge to tse.
There is no model editor but that is not a problem at all, there are many very good model editors available.
There is a world/mission editor where you can place maps from quark, models and other stuff.
The playback of movies is broken ! ;[
There is a really nice terain editor.
Its harder to start than with GS but tge involwes some real development and not playing with a gui.
Finally: Its a really nice product that we can use for the cRPG but much work have to be done to support large open areas, like fantasy like cities and such and to make a dynamic day and night cycle ( the big problem is not about making the sun dynamic but about the outdoor shadow maps that are static and they cant make shadows like models becouse the game would need a super computer to run and making another system may be too hard or too hardware hungry ).

Then i heard about Nebula 2:
I havent really test that becouse it needs a teem of skilled programmes that i dont have but from what i read its a very powerfull engine, the screenchots are more than we would like to achieve. The only big minus is that I and my teem are artists not programmers.

Finally reading tutorials and serching the web i found many comments about TV being much better than torgue and "easy to use" so i folowed the links and found this page, i have read some about it and then downloaded the 6.2 free sdk.
I checked all the tools and the documentation and i have lots of questions. The documentation is a very good "encyclopedia" for the engine functions but there is no "Stupid people read here" ;] like in GS with a workschop for creating a small project so starting may be a real pain for me.
The engine functions are really cool and the screenchost look very cool to.
I have visual c++ 6 so i can, following the documentation use it, that is a big +
The other nice thing is the price.
I understand that if i buy the license that allows me for one commercial project i can make as much non commercial projects as i want ?
And if i made things with the free sdk i can quickly and easy port it to the full version ?
I understand that this are stupid questions so sory and please dont flame me
Iam to stupid at mathematics to make a level editor but iam willing to learn all that would be needed to programm the game mechanicsand physics.

My game will be a non commercial product but if it will be really good iam thinking of selling it to garage games or other indie publisher and after covering my expenses use the money for other projects or give it to charity.
It the publishers wont want it i will try to put it on my friends serwer for a free download.

So now i want to ask the pros here if i have any or no chances of making the game in 1-2 yeers, iam willing to learn any programming stuff needed but still iam an artist and my teem are artists too, most of them will propably design the game world on paper ;/ and them like 3 of us will model it on pc's.
If i can compare the game i want to make to any other i think the closest would be "Gothic II" or "Wizardry 8", the biggest + of the game will be the story and its non linearity. As for visual stuff we need a good looking water ( like in the torgue tech demo )  and support for a big outdoor world and dynamic day and night cycle, the rest is not so important becouse I olready told that the "cool" thing will be the story.

Thanks in advance for any answers, and objective opinions.

Borys Pomianek

[JohnPierre]

welcome to the community Borys Pomianek

Well, since you already covered the other engines, ill go into your questions involving TV.  

I understand that if i buy the license that allows me for one commercial project i can make as much non commercial projects as i want ?  

Yep, you can develope for free as long as you want.  Heck, you could even develope the entire project, decide if it's marketable, and if so, then buy a liscense.  However, if you buy a liscense, you do get to work with tv 6.5 which is a million time more powerful than the 6.2 version.  As for porting to the full version (all that takes is one line of code, the actual coding of a project remains the same

I wouldn't worry about the level editor.  Right now, i am making an outdoor world editor for TV.  Arius Myst is creating an Indoor world editor and Byte-Smasher is making a full GUI edtior.  Also, there are many other projects going around that you might find useful.  For instance (i can remember who is doing this one, sry) there is a nice tree creation program in the works.  These editors will be able to handle everything you will need, and are priced very nicely.  

As for the feasability of this project, yes, with the art and music aspects of it handled, it will be possible.   the only thing you have to worry about is whether or not you can stick with it long enough.  

If you have any other quesitons, feel free to ask,

jp

[Borys Pomianek]

Many thanks for the answers. The tools that come with the free sdk are quite rare.
Like the particle editor that produces code !
That is so cool, i playd with the particle editor about 3 hauers and just now i have in mind many cool things that i will make with that .

I may be wrong but the particle generator dosent support c++ ? i saw vb and delphi radio buttons but no c++. I have a book about delphi 7 but newer try to lern it, i will have to remake the code for c++ or can i use delphi and c++ in the same time ? becouse i still dont know where to copy the code exactly, if it would be possible to put the particle thing in a separate file and call it in c++ that would save a lot of time.

Well iam making a lil game where you shoot wireframed tie fighters to get some exp in c++ so ill try later to experiment with those.

About sticking to the project, yes that can be a pain in the **** becouse not all team members will want to work that long, but hey if it will get done that will be so cool to have a game made by youreself .

About those editors will they take long to release ?
that way i can plan when to do what.

I have prepered a yamaha psr 540 syntetazor ( its my bad translation from polish Syntezator ), 2 acustic quitars, one classic guitar, one electric guitar and a violin and iam working on recording those instruments.

I have 1 violing miusician, piano miusician and 2 guitar miusicians, i my self play piano like instruments for 11 yeers and for about 1 yeer an electric guitar.

The biggest problem we will have with recording non electric instruments like violin or acustic guitar becouse i cant just connect it to recording hardware and i dont have a studio but ill try to reduce any bad sounds on the pc.
Iam using Audacity for miusic editoring ( well now iam trying to edit anything, have to read some tutorials ... ).

So waiting for the engine iam trying to compose something, i never imagine it can be so hard to compose miusic for a game, its a lot harder than just composing miusic for fun, i olready made many things but non of that have the mood of that particular situation...

I think that ill work more on miusic and the script for the game, i have writen some things about the world and many stories placed in it that i used in real rpg pen and paper games but saved designing particular quest's till i start designing levels.

Theres an old game masters rule  " Create the world, create events, create global and local problems then put the player in the middle, the rest is up to him and if he chose to go the other way he will just lose a lot of fun but it will be his decision. "
So i dont wana design particular quests before i have my game world redy or part of it.

So my main questions would be about the planed release dates for the software you mentioned.

I dont want to sound that i dont want to make my homework but if you know any tutorials wich cover the use of the out of the box tools and how to use each of them to make a small project that would save me a lot of time.

ps. Just for note when i saw a tool caled material editor i knew that this engine rocks , in other engine documentation and on the irc they told that you have to be a programming guru that knows in and out directX or openGL to make customized materials.

When i start being a pain please tell me, iam trying to cure my self from newb-style forum posting, ive readed some esejs about that

Again thanks for any answers

BP

[JohnPierre]

hey, its pretty hard to become a pain in the butt you'll have to try a lot harded, lol.
Im not to sure when the tools will be ready, but they are for tv 6.5, not tv 6.2.  If you are serious about programming, you might want to think about buying a liscense, its only 150 dollars, and if you do, you get full access to 6.5.  You'll be able to get a huge jump on your project since there is so much more you can do in 6.5 than in 6.2 take for example some of these screen shots.  these are old screens from my world ed.  Some of the newer scenes im comming up with are just amaizing, ill be making some new screen shots with them soon.  Also, these screenshots were taken without shadows on, so they will be even more realistic when they are.





here is my personal matED


here is a new ice effect


these are just a few of the things you can do with it.  These worlds were created in about 5-6 minutes.  If i was an artist in any way, these would be better too

if you want more info, i can post about it, but if you want, go to the In-developement section of the forums and its the post called JD3DX WorldED/Mage, it should have a lot of the older stuff right near the beginning, although, i can see you wanting me to simply repost all its capable of here cause there is some new stuff, and the post is more than a 100 replies, so it might take some weeding through it to find some information

jp

[Borys Pomianek]

Ow, nice efects ! the water looks very nice .

You created it in 5-6 minutes ?! well that is very cool you know.
I saw many programmer art and youre is one of the better ones, so dont worry

The most nice thing i saw on the screens are the shadows cast by clouds, i havent seen this kind of thing. That really makes it a lot more realistic.

If i will be technicaly capable of making this kind of stuff that would be a great start. Iam going to make a prelection about my project on a fantasy conwent and maby i can make some small demo.

About buying the license: i would do so right now but well, iam still a student and iam working now to get some money and ill buy the license soon.

About the editor, you created the terain, texture and placed the objects in youre world editor but what about an indoor editor ? you know like quark for making indoors and placing them on the terain and such. What indoor editor should be used in tv or is there one in development too ?
And the model editor, are there exporters for milshape and 3dsmax ( iam so happy i got one free from colege where my uncle works, its just that i cant use it to good but iam lerning ).

Iam trying to make a list of needed tools:
Material editor.........- In package, usefull
Particle editor......... - In package, usefull
Texture editor.........- In package, dont really know how to use it and what does it do
............................(is it for croping olready redy textures and optimizing its
............................resolution ?? or for packing textures into something like wad
............................files )
Font map editor.......- In package, i understand that it creates a graphic image
...........................contaning letters and other font things and then exports it to a
...........................special format, the engine have the coordinate of each letter and
...........................when needed cuts the leter out of the image, the background of
...........................images and simulate the font they were generated from
Pak explorer...........- In package, i understand that it packs all of the resources in
...........................something like a zip file from where the engine can get the
...........................needed resources but other people cant get theyre hands on the
...........................things inside
texGEN.................- In package, i understand that its for creating a texture that will
...........................be put on a heightmap and i understand that this thing wont be
...........................needed when i get a World editor like the one you showd me.
World shader..........- In package, i dont have a ******* idea how to use the gui, i
...........................understand only that this is for lightmaps but that is generated by
...........................level editors and world editors dosent it ? if i have to use it i will
...........................need a lot of cofeine and whole weekend or wchole summer
...........................vacation
tv manager............- In package, very nice, after checking the debug log i finally know
...........................what my matrox Parchelia supports
World editor...........- Matrix has you, its somewhere there and someday iam gona find
...........................it
Indoor map editor....- I have to find what today editors i can use or look ^
Model editor...........- I have 3dsmax and milkshape
Visual c++ 6...........- Have it and like it
Audacity...............- Have it, like it, use it
Tree editor............- speed tree is to expensive, but as you sad there is one in
...........................development
GUI editor.............- for me its really a must and this one is in development too


Please tell me if iam missing something

ps. Can there be source available for the editors ? Becouse then i would be able to make a Polish translation for my teem. If i cant get the source, someone can extract all the names from the app and send me, ill make a translation and then send it back.
Well it can even help someone else maby ;]. or if someone would tell me how i could make polish patches for the editors and release it for the community, that would be cool and I wouldent be sucha noob then, but dont listen to me i have a big mouth and lots of problems becouse of it.

BP

[JohnPierre]

First off, for your indoor editor, Arius Myst is creating one.  You can however use either Valve Hammer or anthing else that produces .MAP/.BSP files.  They are capable of being directly converted to .TVO files, which render faster than current Bsp's.  Whats cool is my outdoor editor will be fully capable of importing Arius's indoor worlds, so you can create everything at once.  My editor also comes with its own MATED and particle ED.  For a texture Ed you can use anything, even paintshop pro and all those.  jpg and bmp, png and dds, etc... all are good in TV.  My editor has a full lightmapping section, it even calculates where the landscape casts shadow onto itself from hills and stuff  Arius's indoor editor supports all lights as well.  The tree editor being made is excellent from what i've seen so far, it may top speed tree, and it will proabably be only a small fraction of the cost.  Byte Smasher is making a GUI editor currently, and it should be really good and easy to use as well.  All this stuff is for 6.5 though.

hope this helps ya

jp

[Borys Pomianek]

ye it helpd a lot thanks. So now iam collecting money for the 6.5 ^_^ and wait for the editors to be released.

Its just that iam really low on money and i hope that the editors will be less than 100$ ( 100$ is 500 zł in Poland and that is a lot money )

BP

[JohnPierre]

oh, i wouldn't worry about that.  The way things are looking right now, i wouldn't say over 50$ for an indoor editor/outdoor editor package.  (Note: this is an estimate, im not really sure, since this hasn't been discussed too much, once a decision has been made, ill make a notification.)

[Borys Pomianek]

that would be ok...

Thanks
Iam gona do some research and post about anything i found important

[Spetsnaz]

Whatever happened to the indoor/outdoor editing programs that were discussed in these threads?

[Borys Pomianek]

This topic is olmost a yeer old  :wink:

BP

[Spetsnaz]

I went into the chat channel and no one had any info on a level editor for TrueVision. Is there one? Or would everything have to get modelled?

[Vuli]

I went into the chat channel and no one had any info on a level editor for TrueVision. Is there one? Or would everything have to get modelled?

No there is no Level editor.

TV3D is a programming api, not "Spetsnaz Out Of Box Game".

TV3D = DirectX - (DirectX Complexity)

V

[Borys Pomianek]

With a level editor everything olso HAS to be modeled.

level editors are used to place those models, place entities, add pathways or how you call them. lights, animations etc.

Bsp editors are used to create bsp levels like for quake, doom or hl. Those editors are used to create simple indoor (!) levels and sometimes olso let you to place models and entities and other stuff.

Now both should generate some kind of file. This file will either be only a bsp map or a comple level.

Now writing the first one is not very easy but is something you can achieve for intance in a month timeframe. You will get them a very good selfmade editor that will work just as you want it to work.

Creating the seccond will take a lot more time but is also doable. Point is that there is no point (!). There are a lot of 3rd party bsp editors that work and they have nothing to do with the final engine you use to display those bsp levels.

You just have to remmember that it does not mean that entities or other custom stuff placed in those bsp editors will work.

That is why some bsp editors have presets for creating levels for games like hl, quake or other.

There is no TV preset becouse tv is not a game engine.

You have to code your own way of using those bsp levels along with creating your own format for the whole levels or using the new tvm.

Its not that easy or that hard as it sound. You just have to do it yourself becouse it would take people forever to tell you everything.

BP