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Author Topic: TV3D vs Any Other 3D Engine  (Read 16521 times)
Josip
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« on: November 07, 2004, 08:40:32 AM »

TV3D is the best...

At least until Unreal III comes around (if anyone can afford it  :lol: ).
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2004, 08:46:21 AM »

Yea, i'm very reluctant to post in this sub forum. Seems that anybody using this forum is probably biast towards tv3d, so i see it as kind of a futile excercise. Not to menton its probably asking for trouble, hence the "heavily moderated" desc. I've used a few engines in a lot of different languages. It was hard to find a decent engine for my native delphi. Of course once i found tv that was the end of my searching. Not really much else to say, you can't be too objective when no other engine really comes close. Least thats my opinion.
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darqSHADOW
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2004, 10:33:24 AM »

The highly moderated tag is on there simply so we do not have newbies from other forums coming on posting about other engines.  I created this forum so we have a place for people to post why they chose TV3D over X or Y engine.  What drew you to the TV3D engine, and what kept you here, etc.  As I said in another posting Googlebot is visiting us constantly now, and I am using this forum as a way to target users.  But this also means that negitive comments on the forum are now found by Google within a day, and so I am going to be doing heavy moderation through-out the forums.  I won't be deleting anything that normally gets posted, but from now on posts I deem as inapproperate will be deleted, not locked.

DS
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2004, 10:45:49 AM »

Quote from: "darqSHADOW"
The highly moderated tag is on there simply so we do not have newbies from other forums coming on posting about other engines.  I created this forum so we have a place for people to post why they chose TV3D over X or Y engine.  What drew you to the TV3D engine, and what kept you here, etc.  As I said in another posting Googlebot is visiting us constantly now, and I am using this forum as a way to target users.  But this also means that negitive comments on the forum are now found by Google within a day, and so I am going to be doing heavy moderation through-out the forums.  I won't be deleting anything that normally gets posted, but from now on posts I deem as inapproperate will be deleted, not locked.

DS


Sorry man, i didn't mean to sound negative, i was just trying to say that id offer my opinion but that i didn't want to get into a flame war about it. Guess i worded it wrong Sad
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darqSHADOW
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2004, 11:16:30 AM »

Sorry, that wasn't directed exactly at you, it was more of a general "why I did it" post.  =)

DS
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nitro
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2004, 11:55:55 AM »

OK !
some people knows here i'm not fanatic and i'm very objective !
why : because if you are fanatic you cant' contribute to progress of your loved 3D engine !

i've used some more popular :
Blitz3D,TV3D,3DGS, a little Torque, Ogre3D, Irrlicht,Dark basic Pro

and i have really fast tested  some i don't liek and find too limited :
jamagic,reality factory, genesis , power render etc ...

well all today engines have the same graphic look :
pixel Shaders :
bump specular,stencil shadows etc ...
the difference will come from artists game creation content and form special
shaders effects (toonshadig, prince of persia fullscreen glow filters etc ..)

well for me any today 3D engine with shaders is the same as others !
and also today 3D engine format support multi textures,objects parts :
future TV3D 6.5 , future 3DGS , future Torque , future BlitzMAx  etc ...
and a lot of today engines
include a Physic engine or inteface to comunicate with one !

and some of them have grass factory in standard function and that works great :
Torque game engine for ex ..

for terrains all people :
cipher engine, TV3D,3DGS, Torque already have that :
LOD feature with some other things !

but for me i'm only game making oriented :
the most important like a lot of people here know it are game
tools creation :
-great exporters for 3D modellers
-World/map builder
-terrain builder
-Script language
-paths system  editor
-particle editor (Torque future 2D package,Ogre3D,Particle editor 3 user contribution
for 3DGS community, Blitz particles editors for sell ...)

well for game making there are very expensive with lot of tools
designed for games but could be used for anything else !

for me the more interesting
and popular are these some with greta tools and affordable price for indie game making :

 - Torque : great complete terrain builder  , BSP interiors lightmapped
supprt , script , shaders tool in the works etc ...
*** complicated code
BUT with it's package and tools : you can directly create a game if you have
your game content : models , textures etc ...

- 3DGS :  World editor , script, tool for export/import skinning ,
*** not powerful and limited in some areas and expensive to have all features
BUT very easy of use and you have it : you can like Torque direclty start create your
game !


-Blitz3D : great DX7 features and  programming and tools done by users that you can buy : Giles lightmapper, outstanding terrain/world builers etc ..
*** very slow engine and very long to program : lot fo lines to do in 2 lines same thing in TV3D for example
BUT  like teh 2 others : you have it and buyed some tools :
ligtmapper, terrain and world editor : you cna directly start creating your game !

- Dark basic Pro : lot of people know how it is very very very SLOW and full of BUGGS
and it's language is AWFULL !

AND NOW : TV3D :
remember i don' use only one 3D engine : i'm not fanatic :
i only use what is fast , with good tools, easy, and with cool features
so i can have a free opinion  !

-TV3D : no tools , no tools made by community and that we can buy like these
of Blitz3D !
**** you have TV3D : you must spend lot of time creating some tools to start creating something and not as speed as lot of people think , look at 6.5 videos and you'll see the FPS are not incredible for simple scenes : no enemies,no AI , not a lot of particles !
(don't forget i'm not fanatic)
BUT :
great langage and CLasses , easy to programm, support for .Net langages, great functions for 6.2 !
very easy of use and great promising 6.5 !
the bad : no tools like BLitz3D (a lot to buy made by users) ,Torque,3DGS,UNreal 2 and 3,Half Life 2 Source engine

I repeat i like TV3D (trust me or not i don't care) !
the day i find some great tools with TV3D like other engines
( tools free , official or to buy )
i perhaps will be FULL TV3D Smiley !

Ciao !
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nitro
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Posts: 159


« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2004, 11:58:12 AM »

I thnik this thread is good for TV3D :

because it can bring new ideas , features for
the future TV3D 6.5 or version 7 !

but it will be benefic only if people are not fanatic and deny to observe
other 3D engines !
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AriusMyst
Guest
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2004, 12:21:42 PM »

Quote from: "nitro"
OK !
some people knows here i'm not fanatic and i'm very objective !
why : because if you are fanatic you cant' contribute to progress of your loved 3D engine !

i've used some more popular :
Blitz3D,TV3D,3DGS, a little Torque, Ogre3D, Irrlicht,Dark basic Pro

and i have really fast tested  some i don't liek and find too limited :
jamagic,reality factory, genesis , power render etc ...

well all today engines have the same graphic look :
pixel Shaders :
bump specular,stencil shadows etc ...
the difference will come from artists game creation content and form special
shaders effects (toonshadig, prince of persia fullscreen glow filters etc ..)

well for me any today 3D engine with shaders is the same as others !
and also today 3D engine format support multi textures,objects parts :
future TV3D 6.5 , future 3DGS , future Torque , future BlitzMAx  etc ...
and a lot of today engines
include a Physic engine or inteface to comunicate with one !

and some of them have grass factory in standard function and that works great :
Torque game engine for ex ..

for terrains all people :
cipher engine, TV3D,3DGS, Torque already have that :
LOD feature with some other things !

but for me i'm only game making oriented :
the most important like a lot of people here know it are game
tools creation :
-great exporters for 3D modellers
-World/map builder
-terrain builder
-Script language
-paths system  editor
-particle editor (Torque future 2D package,Ogre3D,Particle editor 3 user contribution
for 3DGS community, Blitz particles editors for sell ...)

well for game making there are very expensive with lot of tools
designed for games but could be used for anything else !

for me the more interesting
and popular are these some with greta tools and affordable price for indie game making :

 - Torque : great complete terrain builder  , BSP interiors lightmapped
supprt , script , shaders tool in the works etc ...
*** complicated code
BUT with it's package and tools : you can directly create a game if you have
your game content : models , textures etc ...

- 3DGS :  World editor , script, tool for export/import skinning ,
*** not powerful and limited in some areas and expensive to have all features
BUT very easy of use and you have it : you can like Torque direclty start create your
game !


-Blitz3D : great DX7 features and  programming and tools done by users that you can buy : Giles lightmapper, outstanding terrain/world builers etc ..
*** very slow engine and very long to program : lot fo lines to do in 2 lines same thing in TV3D for example
BUT  like teh 2 others : you have it and buyed some tools :
ligtmapper, terrain and world editor : you cna directly start creating your game !

- Dark basic Pro : lot of people know how it is very very very SLOW and full of BUGGS
and it's language is AWFULL !

AND NOW : TV3D :
remember i don' use only one 3D engine : i'm not fanatic :
i only use what is fast , with good tools, easy, and with cool features
so i can have a free opinion  !

-TV3D : no tools , no tools made by community and that we can buy like these
of Blitz3D !
**** you have TV3D : you must spend lot of time creating some tools to start creating something and not as speed as lot of people think , look at 6.5 videos and you'll see the FPS are not incredible for simple scenes : no enemies,no AI , not a lot of particles !
(don't forget i'm not fanatic)
BUT :
great langage and CLasses , easy to programm, support for .Net langages, great functions for 6.2 !
very easy of use and great promising 6.5 !
the bad : no tools like BLitz3D (a lot to buy made by users) ,Torque,3DGS,UNreal 2 and 3,Half Life 2 Source engine

I repeat i like TV3D (trust me or not i don't care) !
the day i find some great tools with TV3D like other engines
( tools free , official or to buy )
i perhaps will be FULL TV3D Smiley !

Ciao !


The trouble is, a lot of the engines you have mentioned, with tools, are game engines. I like the fact that rather than trying to make generic tools the team has opted not to do so. They have just provided tools for the little things, like mats. Sure those game engines may have tools, but i bet a lot of them are very specific to genres. The bonus with writing these yourself is that they can be highly specific to your game, custom file formats, ai, lighting the works. You're not relying on somebody elses ideas so much. If you want something done quickly then the end result will probably not be as good as if you'd spent time polishing your own tools. I actually find writing my level editor fun. An it means if i ever release a game i can offer the level editor up for modding purposes. The whole framerate thing you mentioned has me at a loss, i get upwards of 2000 fps in simple scenes and rarely drop below 400 fps on complex ones and i've heard 6.5 is even quicker. I used to get slow framerates, but that was down to my old system an its crappy hardware.
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JohnPierre
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Posts: 1250


« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2004, 12:27:30 PM »

whats funny is that you didn't search the forum very well, there are tools in there for just about anything you can think of.  There are full editors, to grass factories, lightmapping, etc.  I've been here for a long time, and i found that as opposed to having the tools made, such as in torque, i can easily(very, very easily) make my own editors and other tools and I can put whatever i want in them, give them tons of functionality and make them exactly what i need for my projects.  No matter how funtional you can make a terrain editor, its not going to be exactly what everyone needs, i found this out with a lot of programs, thats why i switched to TV, so i can easily create all my own tools.
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JohnPierre
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2004, 12:28:33 PM »

lol, arius, you beat me to it
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2004, 12:31:52 PM »

lol,  im just glad somebody else was thinking along the same lines  Cheesy
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darqSHADOW
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2004, 12:59:09 PM »

Quote
look at 6.5 videos and you'll see the FPS are not incredible for simple scenes : no enemies,no AI , not a lot of particles !


One thing you seem to not realize is that when you take a video of a realtime application, you automatically lower the framerate so that the video will render properly.  (Not too fast, not too slow.)

Until you have actually seen 6.5 in action, you cannot judge it.  The FPS of 6.5 blows 90% of the engines on the market away, because it has a seriously optimized render pipeline.  I have scenes that render at 400fps+ with full physics on a GF4MX.  Obviously running extensive shaders on a GF4 will slow down the scene considerably.

About tools, 6.5's official toolset is slowly growing.  The current tools available include:

Mutliple exporters, for most popular modelling packages.
A command line coverter to convert 3DS to TVM.
Modelview for loading models, and creating effects.  (Loading animations to an animated model, creating normalmaps from high poly models, welding verticies, and quite a bit more.)
SFxE, a simple shader editor with code highlighting and error highlighting.

I am also working on the new ParticleEditor since 6.5's particles systems are extremely advanced and allow you to save/load the systems during runtime.

Again, until open beta, please refrain from judging 6.5 -- unless you are in the beta.  Screenshots and Videos do not show you what is possible, or how easy it is to use, only beta users can do that, since they've been using it for months now.

DS
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BYTE-Smasher
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2004, 01:03:22 PM »

yah... nitro... the way I do videos, my framerate can drop from >100fps to <2 fps.... so that's not an accurate measure of framerate at ALL.... /me smacks his head
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seer
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Posts: 485


« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2004, 03:10:01 PM »

i have yet to find a tool that came with any other engine that was of very much use besides exporters for the major 3d modeling packages.

TV3d is not a game engine, its a 3d engine. theres a great number of people using it that arent making a game or anything close to a game.  
  a level editor would just limit your game to a specific limitation of the editor.
 for making the basic level gemotry theres plenty of 3rd party options that have been in development far longer the TV, the TV devs probably couldnt improve on it much (or maybe they could!)

another very big plus for TV3D is the dev's are the most helpful and accessible ive ever found.   most engine have a team hiding somwhere behind the website,  ive never been able to talk (chat) with the actaul programmers of the engine, make suggestions, ask for help, and get very prompt can clear answers.
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WEst
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Daniel Martinek


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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2004, 03:32:30 PM »

I have tried many other Engines, but only TV was able to give me all I want: Easy and efficient to programm, in many different languages and as fast as possible. Now with 6.5 they have gone one step forward, because, it isn't only easy and fast, it's graphic quality can compare with all standards of 3D Engines now, and also with them which will come out in some years.
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Mutos
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2004, 04:01:35 PM »

Same as WEst !
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Ice_dragon
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2004, 04:23:52 PM »

I played a lot with 3dgamestudio before but I like truevision3d more Cheesy
Because I can't progam in c++. and now I can use vb6.0 Tongue
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I try hard to speak correctly English Cheesy
Visual basic 6.0 user
tweakbox
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2004, 04:36:41 PM »

not to mention that the quality of graphics and flexability of TV far exceeds 3D Game Studio
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Ice_dragon
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2004, 04:56:27 PM »

Quote from: "tweakbox"
not to mention that the quality of graphics and flexability of TV far exceeds 3D Game Studio


That's right Wink
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I try hard to speak correctly English Cheesy
Visual basic 6.0 user
nitro
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2004, 05:53:32 PM »

yeah !

i think i have gonna wrong once gaain :
TV3D not game engine but can be a great game engine Smiley !

OK !
and all things i have said , was what i thaught ,and ok i understand :
videos don't represent the real FPS !
ok the next time i don't take accoun t rame rate on videos !
well it was just a comparative quick !
and like JhonPierre said we can hve all editors etc...and some already exist bor indoor BSP :
half life tools :
but the problem is the copyright of use of them and things produced with them !

OK , so for it's price , there are any other concurrent engine for the moment ?
so what can we do to bring new ideas ?
perhaps compare it with the great Reality Engine (and very expensive !! ) !
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