Torque Game Engine (TGE)

[AriusMyst]

Hey i just wanted to add:

Before i heard about tv i was thinking about buying a torgue license but iam happy that i dint do that.

Mostly becouse of the dev team there. Iam not saying that they are bad or anything. Just that they seem to lack some buisnes proffesionality.
Not the page, the page is very good.
The problem is when you want to contact the staff.

Torgue seems to be a released stable product but i cant say that it is.
It is like a free project ( but it is not free ), in non ending  flow of repairing things that dont work.

I had this situation where i wanted to ask about things related to the license and finally it came out that the lead programmer dosent know whats inside the license.
Next he told that he is working on some fixes and would like people to tell what should be fixed.
So there was the part where evrybody new atleast one big thing that dint work and the lead programer responded that this are to hard to be fixed and that hes looking for some easy things to fix.
He olso told me that it dosent matter if i can put the torgue logo instead of a flash screen into a movie becouse the movie playback is broken.
So i asked why wont they fix it.
he answered that theyre clients dint need it.
and that it wont be fixed.
After asking that if i will buy the license thus become a client and ask them to fix it, will they fix it, i got an answer to fix it my self if i want it to work.

And i think that i would get the same answer for all the stuff other people metioned that did not work.

I really wanted to buy that license but after that kind of customer service i wont buy it even for 5 bucks. I dont want to repair all the broken stuff in theire code.

Maby i just dont understand something but it is logical to me that if i buy a product for instance a bicycle i dont have to repair 40% of it.

And iam disapointed that the lead programmer of gg dosent repair stuff becouse its "to hard for him" and that he dosent know whats inside the license of the product he develope.

I understand that this is all INDIE stuff but that dosent mean that most of the product should not work, even GS that is behind the rest have less non-working elements than TGE. And from what i understaned people from gg think that it is ok that most of the stuff dosent work becouse hey its cheap isnt it ?

I personally think that a released stable commercial software should work at least at 95% no matter how much it costs.


That is why i chosed to go for tv. Becouse ( atleast from my curent exp with tv ) it basically works the way it should.  And tv being developed by if iam correct 3 people ( correct me if iam wrong please ) instead of a big team like the torgue teem and still being a lot more advanced than torgue.

BP

hehe, yea its 4 people in the team, they have an artist too  

[Borys Pomianek]

thanks for the info.

As i counted gg has 13 ( lucky number isnt it ;] ) people dev team.

iam looking forward to try TSE, as its a full rewrite and maby it will finally support the broken stuff.

Still to buy tse you need the tge license. so you pay 100 for tge, 150 for tse and have an engine that is still way behind tv and costs 100 bucks more.

BP

[Superman95]

I recently bought a torque engine, I had already bought the "3D Game Programming all in one" book and the engine looked promising.  I've been frustrated ever since.  I really liked it's rendering features and that it was cross-platform.  BUT, you pretty much have to extent the engine to do anything beyond a first person shooter.  And all the tutorials I found were just mods for the fps that it shipped with.  It also seems strange that it has not resourcing system.  All of the images, object and sounds have to be packaged as individual files with no way to protect them.  And I don't understand why they created a new language instead of using something like phyton or any other commonly used scripting language.  Before I bought it, i found a pdf that compared engine and it found Torque was the best for the money (TV3D wasn't on in the comparison).

While searching the internet for torque tutorials, I found this forum thread and subsequently TV3D.  I looked at the features and the first thing that got me was I could use my programming language of choice (C#).  So, I downloaded and installed it.

I went straight to the tutorials and samples sections and started to read though the projects.  At first, I thought, "this is pretty cool".  But, I became concerned when one of the samples and one of the tutorials didn't compile.  In the first simple, I commented out the line and the sample mostly ran.  (fyi: it was the temple sample, and the problem was with this line: "Water.UpdateWater();"  according to the compiler, this function requires a parameter).

The second problem was in one of the tutorials.  In torque, you can't do mouse-click-detection on the 3d objects without extenting the engine.  So, when I saw a tutorial on the subject, I was anxious to check it out.   Well, it too would not compile.  The problem was this line:

Code:

WindowsMousePosition.X = 0;

Notice that the X is uppercase when the actual property of the COM object is lowercase.

Now, sure that may sound petty, but think about it like this:
First, it means no one bothered to even compile the project, much less test it, before releasing it.  Second (and more importantly) notice that the Y property is uppercase.  This means the two properties are not consistant with each other.  Things like this are typically signs of sloppy programming which is more than a little concerning.  True, it isn't a bug, but it makes one question the inter-workings of the engine.Honestly, it feels like a beta.

One last thing, I'm curious about speed.  Has any developed a full lenght, demand game that could vouch for the engine's performance?

[Pavel]

I think the Dev's really rushed converting samples/tutorials from VB to the other languages. Hope they get all of them done for 6.5 though.

[billythekid]

As an  experienced Torque user and a not so experienced TV3D user (Im fairly new to it), TV3D blows Torque out of the water. And actually a lot of relatively cheap or free engines are much better than Torque. I have never understood why Torque has such a large following.

And I wouldnt worry too much if the samples dont compile. They are merely there for reference, at least thats what I use them for anyway. However I do agree they should have at least tested to make sure the source compiled let alone run.

[Superman95]

Okay, I have to add this...

I didn't mention this before because one could argue that it's personal taste, but I hate VB.  And it turned me off that most of the engine seems to be written it.......

HOWEVER, I was checking out the features in the 6.5 build, according to it, the code has been completely migrated to C++.  This is indeed a sweet change.

The other features look great too...but now, i'm dying to get my hands on it?  anyone know how close it is to release?

[Eric]

open beta should start in the next 2-3 months but thats just a guesstimate...

[AriusMyst]

Okay, I have to add this...

I didn't mention this before because one could argue that it's personal taste, but I hate VB.  And it turned me off that most of the engine seems to be written it.......

HOWEVER, I was checking out the features in the 6.5 build, according to it, the code has been completely migrated to C++.  This is indeed a sweet change.

The other features look great too...but now, i'm dying to get my hands on it?  anyone know how close it is to release?

There isn't an official date. I could hazard a guess but that would merely raise false hopes. Its a beta, if you want it get a lic. Otherwise just wait for it to run its course. As for the samples issues you were having. Remember that they were probably originally written in an earlier version of visual studio than the one you are using. I'm not saying thats an excuse, but well, 6.2 is sh**... really, if people are honest about it. Its ancient in terms of what it can do - it was good a year ago, but now it really does show its age imo. 6.5 is far better across the board, that includes its support for multiple languages. I can't even imagine using 6.2 anymore. An I agree, I think you were being picky. Welcome to the board  

I still think this thread is odd. TGE is a game engine, so I don't see how the comparison works. Though obviously as superman is here its served its purpose. More people moving over from the darkness that is TGE. An I agree superman, TGE is very honed for one purpose an that is FPS's. Thats why I like TV3D, as a 3D engine rather than a game engine it doesn't have to fold over to one genre. But instead you can use it as a base for your own game engine. Thats where its power lies. Especially with 6.5, integrated physics, per-pixel lighting and so on. Its hard to make something look crap in 6.5 :lol: As for speed, the fact that 6.2 is partially written in VB6 doesn't actually hinder it too much. But even so, 6.5 is so much quicker. I remember doing a test( albeit perhaps an unfair one ) when I first got beta, that was 50 boxes in a scene, in 6.5 I added normal mapping so it was per-pixel lit. It was still twice as fast. Whilst its a fairly rubbish test it still demonstrates that 6.5 is by far the faster of the two. An well, other than that its down to your( or your end-users ) h/w and how well your code is optimized. 6.2 and 6.5 are both fast engines, the rest is down to you.

Edit: Eric posted as I was writing, just like to say that if I were to hazard a "guesstimate" it would be around the same time scale as his.

[Neuro]

Like many, I fall into the category of purchasing Torque a while back and turned out to never using it(ever notice how in every single 3d engine forums, there are folks who do this!). I even got the book..."3D Programming...blah..blah". I must admit, the book does a nice job of explaining how Torque script works.....but other than that, nothing else on extending the engine itself.

A couple of folks on another forums are really tryin hard to convert some users into Torque throwing out concepts which a designer can benefit from using. I'll admit that I am a full supporter of the idea of doing a lot more with less work, and Torque does handle a lot of the stuff for you.....and it surpisingly very robust(on machines that it actually runs on)... but theres always that thing you get the feeling you dont have the full control of the engine....without messing things up. Plus, Torque script has got to be one of the most horrendous scripting language ever...

Anyways, I've bee playing around with TV6.2 the past few weeks and it's already one the best engines I've used....It seems to work perfectly for the game concept i have laid out...plus the C# capabilities! But I keep on hearing this thing about 6.5 being a totally different animal...perhaps I should go ahead and get my license and check it out...?

[AriusMyst]

Like many, I fall into the category of purchasing Torque a while back and turned out to never using it(ever notice how in every single 3d engine forums, there are folks who do this!). I even got the book..."3D Programming...blah..blah". I must admit, the book does a nice job of explaining how Torque script works.....but other than that, nothing else on extending the engine itself.

A couple of folks on another forums are really tryin hard to convert some users into Torque throwing out concepts which a designer can benefit from using. I'll admit that I am a full supporter of the idea of doing a lot more with less work, and Torque does handle a lot of the stuff for you.....and it surpisingly very robust(on machines that it actually runs on)... but theres always that thing you get the feeling you dont have the full control of the engine....without messing things up. Plus, Torque script has got to be one of the most horrendous scripting language ever...

Anyways, I've bee playing around with TV6.2 the past few weeks and it's already one the best engines I've used....It seems to work perfectly for the game concept i have laid out...plus the C# capabilities! But I keep on hearing this thing about 6.5 being a totally different animal...perhaps I should go ahead and get my license and check it out...?

6.5 was a total rewrite. Its now a complete C++ engine. But I wouldn't say its a different animal as such, internally maybe, but externally things are pretty much the same. I would imagine this is so people don't have to learn an entirely new api but rather just the new features. I mean TvEngine.Clear is still TvEngine.Clear etc, func names are the same. But then there is already a lot of new stuff in there that 62 didn't have, lots of new Tv objects an so on. TvShader, TvPhysics and so on. So yea, if you want to have a head start on the new stuff then buying a lic an using the beta is definately the way to go. But always keep in mind that it is a beta. You're not just there to play around, but to report bugs an take time out to help solve them( sometimes you'll be asked to try something or whatever to narrow it down, or even recreate the bug in simpler code ). An well, as a beta tester I take that as a duty. Though, to be honest, a lot of the bugs that are found are usually very small things - been a while since a really big one. But if you like 62, 65 will amaze you. I know thats cliche, but its true.

[Neuro]

A little off topic, but before I make the purchase, does the  6.5 beta come with any new documentations or tutorials?

[Anti-Gremlin]

not during closed beta.. not sure about open beta, but release definately will.

[billythekid]

The documentation for 6.5 has not been released yet, but Ive heard it is coming. But the 6.2 docs and tutorials still work for most things minus the new features.

[AriusMyst]

Well yea, this is precisely what i mean when i say "remember its a beta" - you're meant to know what you're doing so you can be the best possible tester. So really, you should know how to do most of the common things. When you get onto the things that 62 doesn't cover their are some user samples and a couple sticky threads hanging around in the beta sub. But on the whole you're expected to know your stuff and find your way using that old-school friend of every coder, mr. trial and error.

[BlindSide]

the IRC is probably the most helpfull place to go for beta users - people are in there 24/7

[Neuro]

Thanks for the response folks. I will purchase the license shortly...I want get a few things tested first......

[darqSHADOW]

Yes, I cleaned up this post.  I am sick of babysitting, so now I'll just start banning people for violations.

DS

[Javin]

But, I became concerned when one of the samples and one of the tutorials didn't compile.  

The second problem was in one of the tutorials.  Well, it too would not compile.  

Now, sure that may sound petty, but think about it like this:
First, it means no one bothered to even compile the project, much less test it, before releasing it.  

One last thing, I'm curious about speed.  Has any developed a full lenght, demand game that could vouch for the engine's performance?

I think the Dev's really rushed converting samples/tutorials from VB to the other languages. Hope they get all of them done for 6.5 though.

Well, Pavel pretty much hit this one right on the nose.  A lot of TV 6.2 was in fact written in VB, and it was primarily written FOR VB.  This all started eons ago when we VBers realized that DirectX simply required too many calls to make a VB "game" in 3D terribly feasable.  Specifically, 3D math VB chokes on.

And then God said let there be Sylvain... And it was good.  He started designing TV as a "freeware" project that was open source at the time.  Before long, a "company" whos name is not to be spoken out loud, decided that indeed, TV was good, and they went against the Gods, taking Sylvain's work, compiling it, and attempting to sell it.  This angered the Gods, and they instructed Sylvain to no longer make TV open source, and there was much lamenting.

At this point, there was quite an interest in TV as it had become quite powerful.  The first time one of the team members breathed the idea that TV might be able to have a license purchased, I screamed, kicked, bit, and pulled hair until they let me purchase the first license (this was before the license agreement had been hammered out even.  I paid $500 for the multi-use license, and can honestly say I've never regretted it for a second.)

At the point that TV went public, it QUICKLY became quite popular.  Its simplicity, speed, and customer support have it very quickly climbing the charts to the point that it's pulling MANY users of "established" engines such as Torque.  I even remember a conversation once upon a time when we wondered IF it would ever be so good.  It's far surpassed my wildest expectations.

If you're one of the "free" users right now, you're using the 6.2 compile.  All tutorials were initially written in VB, then ported over by various people to make them available.  When you purchase a license, what you're REALLY purchasing is the rights to use 6.5 in the future when it's publicly released.  6.2 is a fun toy, and gives you a good idea of the basics of how TV works.  However, 6.5 is, for lack of a better word, awesome.

TV 6.5 is a complete and total rewrite of the engine.  There is no more VB.  In fact, what little isn't C++ is actually ASM now.  Its speed is phenomenal.  The added features dwarf 6.2 to the point that 6.2 really DOES look like a "toy."  Things like mesh morphing, built-in (and VERY simple to use) physics, built in LOD, even on landscapes, advanced particle engines that can use sprites, meshes, etc.  Landscape splatting, shader support, as well as common shaders (ie, offset bumpmapping) built-in.  I could go on for ever.

For those who have had the misfortune of dealing with me for the past few years, they will all have seen my TRON demo that I wrote in 6.2 some time ago.  It took me approximately 3 minutes to port that demo over to 6.5, changing a few of the commands since, as Superman mentioned, many of the commands from 6.2 don't fit a standard.  EVERYTHING in 6.5 is standardized.  Things like Land.ChangePointAltitude have been changed to Land.SetHeight to match the Land.GetHeight standard.  One thing to keep in mind is that most of the people working on 6.2 (if not all of them) were not American, and English isn't their primary language.  Now, with darqSHADOW on the team, not to mention that the development team actually LISTENS to their users ON A DAILY BASIS, things are being standardized and polished VERY well for 6.5.  Anywho, with the port over to 6.5, I saw a 250% INCREASE in speed.  That Tron Demo in 6.5 now runs at about 950 FPS on average (1024x768 2.0 gHz, ATI x800).  And this is in VB6!  

All I can say is spend the $150.  That's the cost of 3 video games now days, and when you see all that you can do with 6.5, you'll be floored.  Do keep in mind, though, that 6.5 does NOT have documentation yet.  It's still a PRE release beta.  That means it's not EVEN a beta yet.  So be patient.  But trust me, I've been using TV for half a decade now, and I can tell you that you will ONLY have to wait as long as is necessary.  

For those of you who are professional programmers, you know that $150 is nothing to pay for a tool if it even has the CHANCE that it could work out as well as I claim it does.  Trust me.  Not one of you will be disappointed.  

/2CENTS

-Javin

[GoodVillain]

Yes, I cleaned up this post.  I am sick of babysitting, so now I'll just start banning people for violations.

DS

Its about time you use the forums ban feature. :wink:

[Borys Pomianek]

Ohh, sory but iam quite confused.

Javin, you said that 6.5 has mesh morphing...

I may confuse mesh morphing with other thing but i thought that its a thing that will be available in shader 4.0.

I would like to add that not all of people here are proffesional programmers, some are even students like me. As iam very low on cash becouse of my other projects that i fund by my self and with little help from friends ( iam working on a website/group of people that consist of artists that want to work together to help each other and sell theyr work, that needs a lot of money, the thing is not yet finished becouse of lack of money )  and i cant spend 300 $ just to buy tv and torgue and check wich of them is better. You can say "hey but tv is free and you can use the 6.2 samples etc..." but then there is this problem. I use c++, i dont really have time to learn other languages like VB and the samples for c++ arent too good becouse they are ported, and there are very little samples in c++ imho.

So there you see my problem, the whole thing is too hard for me becouse i dont have the experience in programming that i need. On one hand tv is way better than torgue ( in terms of licensing for instance ) becouse i can have the 6.5 for my 150 $ on the other hand i wont be able to really start doing big things in TV without having the 6.5 version and it is usable mostly to people olready knowing TV. At the same time i can have torque witch is not great but is writen in c++ and you can use c++ all the time, it has docs and things and the starter packs.

If i buy torgue i will have to pay 100$ then 150$ for the early adopters license to TSE and i will have something that is not as good as tv 6.5 for 100$ more. So that is not that great.

If i buy TV i will have to pay 150$ but i will get into the 6.5 beta and a great engine for c++ users too.

I will for sure learn more using tv but then tv 6.5 will someday be available for free and torgue will never be available for free. I can be evil and buy torgue and just wait for tv and have those two or buy just tv.

I dont really want to sound ofensive or something becouse i really aprecieate that tv is free. I olso dont want to get banned  .
I just want to point out that chosing an engine can be a very hard thing to doo. 150$ is olmost 3 weeks working for me.

I think that a good way to sell tv to people like me  would be to create a playable demo using tv 6.5 and include the demo source when you buy the license. Becouse many people like the ones you banned arent evil and bad, they are just lame or they lack expierience and knowledge, that dosent mean that they dont want to buy your software. I lack experience and knowledge and i cant really tell if TV is for me even after all the research ive done on other engines. And believie me, everyone tells that theyre engine is the best and have a lot of people in the community that will tell the same and give really good examples. People tell that they create demos in hours. So why not create an official demo ?

Even in my all good will i cant believe that you can create a landscape editing program in 2 hours that will work and have no big bugs. I have read a lot of claims on this forum that all this is ease fast etc. I olso understand that this are the claims of the users not the dev's. And i dont want to be offensive i just want a clean look on the pros and cons.

I was on the torque irc channel and after a stupid conversation i finally got the info that video playback in torgue is *broken*, yes broken, it is implemented but it dosent work. Why it does not work ? becouse the devs think that having cutscenes in a game isnt what people want. Actually i even got banned becouse i asked when it will be fixed and told that its stupid when i heard the answer "never".
Some time later i got the info that tv 6.2 have problems with c++, I have problems with compiling etc.

All this problems are not that hard to solve on your own when your a pro programmer but are a real pain when your just a hobbist. You cant blaim anybody for that becouse its not that the product is broken, you just need more knowledge to use it.

From my point of view it looks like this. Iam confused and at the same time scared that i get exiled from the community here or at the torque website after i buy one of the products becouse iam not a pro programmer and i make stupid comments.

I wouble be happy to see things that would really change this outlook.

Sory for the oftopic but i just had to write it.

BP