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Author Topic: Torque Game Engine (TGE)  (Read 32026 times)
Dan
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« on: November 08, 2004, 07:47:40 AM »

It was a year ago this week that I recall reading in a UK computer mag about how a group of ex-Dynamix staff (the makers of Tribes and it’s sequel) had acquired the rights to the engine used and was selling it on as open source through Garagegames.com.

All my previous tinkering with graphics programming were solely with 2D, I was looking at a way to ease into 3D. Being an adventurous sort I paid a quick visit to the site and downloaded the demo SDK.

I was impressed so ordered my Torque Game Engine SDK "Indie" License. Doing so opened up areas of the garage games site that I was unable to access as an outsider. I was also given instructions on how to retrieve the source code.

The source for torque is written in C++. It is also being added to by the garage games staff, not on a regular basis but regular enough to have to make monthly checks against the central repository. This was rather nice to start with, but as I started adding my own code to the source it started making monthly updates a royal pain in the arse.

Torque had a scripting language that was used to create its editors. If you wanted to edit the landscape of the map you were playing you would simply load the script from the control panel, which could be invoked with a shortcut. Again this was great when I first started, but I had to customize the editors (Mainly the mission file creator) that meant messing with script files (A sort of c language). This was pain number 2; it was more a case of trial and error to get the script to work correctly. No Rad development environment was available for the scripting language.

A good point about Torque was the resource library and community. But this invariably led to pain in the arse number 3. Resources were described, they were not simply a case of 'Download this and unzip it in to you working directory'. Because everyone’s source could and probably was different each step to enable the resource needed to be spelt out.

1) Add global variable to class car
2) Add new function to class script
3) Insert the code below in to the function 'Areyounotpissedoffyet'
4) Spend you weekend tinkering until it sort of works
5) Finally give up and revert to an old version


This would normally end with all the cases in which the code would not work, or what it might break.

The bottom line is that the torque engine is an ailing engine that is only any good if you want to make a FPS. To do anything else would require delving deep in to the source and hoping you don't break too much when you add the functionally your game requires.

In retrospect I can now clearly see that Garage Games has done an excellent job at polishing a turd. One thing you do not see as an outsider visiting the garage games website are pages and pages of unfinished projects that read like a D-day obituary. Although this was quickly lept upon and Digital bone yard was born.

I stopped using Torque 8 month after I had bought my license (If anyone wants it then by all means be my guest)*. It coincided with when I found true vision 3D. Unlike Torque, it wasn't in a magazine that I had heard about it but in a forum.

*EDIT: I have given my license away to Tom Gibson, Could people please stop sending me private messages asking :roll:

My first visit to the TV3D site can only be described as positive, with information easy to find and the layout clean. I was really surprised at the number of examples available in the SDK. I was also pleased that using True vision allowed me to develop my application in the language I am more comfortable with. I had a clean canvas on to which I could write my game logic, which after the nightmares of having to delve in to other peoples code was a breath of fresh air.

I don't think I need to go on as I feel I don’t need to preach to the converted. I do wish to add that the TGE Editors ended up being more of a hinderance than a godsend. I spent far to long trying to get the editors to do what I wanted, in which time I could have built my own tools using RAD development tools.

And if TV3D 6.2 can pistol-whips torque to the floor before booting its hide out the door. 6.5 will batter it in to unrecognizable goo. All though to be fair 6.5 sibling would be TSE for which I haven’t used so can't comment.
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nitro
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2004, 08:17:20 AM »

if you want to do a third person game with torque : you've got not a lot to change in the engine:
just camera and add your scripts !
but i know TorqUE IS VER VERY COMPLICATED :
i 've looked at a last code done by a user :
it was about hitbox detection on models :
and yes : the code is not easy to understand and there
was 3 or 4 files that needed to be modified to have it work !
that's why Torque is not very good for a lot of people !

well , Torque have some good points , but with it's complicated code ,
i think people better do in programming directly in Direct3D or D3D managed !

but for people interested that are interested in outdoor environements that don't wan't to modifie the editors : Torque can be a choice with some very good tools !
and upcoming tools ( T2D for 2D and particle editor, Torque Shader) !
but yes :
Torque is very limited in freedom of game making if you can't go deep in it's code ;
for a lot of people that won't spend weeks in coding for nothing !

well that's my opinion :
 i'm not Torque Fan : sorry for people using it and
for the people that have succed to integrate it's great complexity Smiley !
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Dan
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2004, 08:38:36 AM »

Thank you Nitro for your contribution, Cheesy  

Can I ask however that you try to refrain from the use of incorrect punctuation? (! : and ; are not great substitutes for good old fashion full stops), Like wise CAPIATALISING LETTERS is shouting and make readers ears bleed  :lol:

It will make your posts easier to read, and may* reduce people animosity towards you  Cool

*Not guaranteed though
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nitro
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2004, 08:55:01 AM »

yeah , scuse me !
but i don't post often , and when i do it , it's awfull,
i'll try to make it better and more clear next time !
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2004, 08:56:35 AM »

Quote from: "Dan"
Thank you Nitro for your contribution, Cheesy  

Can I ask however that you try to refrain from the use of incorrect punctuation? (! : and ; are not great substitutes for good old fashion full stops), Like wise CAPIATALISING LETTERS is shouting and make readers ears bleed  :lol:

It will make your posts easier to read, and may* reduce people animosity towards you  Cool

*Not guaranteed though


Remember that nitro's native language might not be english. A lot of people seem to have mentioned all the ":"'s and "!"'s, i can read it just fine.
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houde
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2004, 10:20:43 AM »

=)
it's not hard to read, but it's quite strange Tongue
I hope it's not his native language Cheesy

Anyway, it just funny to read, I'm always laughing when I'm reading his posts
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BYTE-Smasher
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2004, 10:47:20 AM »

roflmfao
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2004, 03:59:48 PM »

I also am a Torque to TV3D convert. TGE is just to complicated, monolithic, and inflexible.

With torque, my day/night cycle code was at 1200+ lines of code and still wasn't working very well. With TV3D, I achieved this with only about 200 LOC Smiley . And I posted the code for everyone (http://www.truevision3d.com/phpBB2/about5906.html).

With Torque landscape paging was impossible. It was easy in TV3D.

Here are some useful past threads concerning TGE vs. TV3D:

http://www.truevision3d.com/phpBB2/about5717.html&highlight=torque
http://www.truevision3d.com/phpBB2/about5717.html&highlight=torque
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2004, 04:04:44 PM »

wow, i didn't know the forum allowed guest posting. Hello-Ha.
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darqSHADOW
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2004, 11:54:54 PM »

Oops, missed that in the new forum.  Fixing...
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TrueVision3D Project Manager
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Waterman
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2004, 06:11:55 AM »

Quote from: "darqSHADOW"
Oops, missed that in the new forum.  Fixing...

If this forum is supposed to be anything else than a "praise TV" one, perhaps guest should be allowed to place anonymous posts in here... Imo any opinion from a user of another engine should be highly appreciated, but if the occasional viewer is supposed to register first, then he maybe won't bother. All in the name of being honest and open-minded. Spam is of course a different issue.
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Things should be described as simply as possible - but not simpler [A. Einstein]
darqSHADOW
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2004, 12:00:38 PM »

Yeah, I was worried about other engines coming on here and spamming if I left the guest account open.  I am not looking for a praise TV forum, but more "why did you switch from X or Y engine" posts.  We all know that most users here are using TV exclusively, and most have switched from other engines, this is a good area to post why, so they Google can index them and we can get search results from it.  Tongue

DS
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The fast and simple way of 3D development.
AriusMyst
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2004, 12:06:37 PM »

Quote from: "darqSHADOW"
Yeah, I was worried about other engines coming on here and spamming if I left the guest account open.


Yea, thats kind of the concern i was trying to express in the other thread, though i wasn't reffering to guest posting. The other worry with guest posting isn't so much from other engine users coming over and stirring things up but more from MMORPG makers. I'm also a member over at gamedev.org and they allow guest posting, the amount of "Free MMORPG Engine Where?" posts we see a day is getting ridiculous, and the majority are from guest posters, i'd imagine if these people had to register we wouldn't see half as many. Thats a good thing about this board actually, its reletively clean of spam. Which is by no means a small feat.
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BYTE-Smasher
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2004, 12:57:09 PM »

It's the result of good moderation Arius... I've run boards before... and the key is to get rid of the crap as soon as you see it... and it helps that there's only one moderator here... (as far as I know)... gamedev prolly has tons... and they probably get flack for deleting "I want to make an mmorpg" posts... "smaller" forums are just easier to moderate... that's all
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2004, 01:28:51 PM »

Quote
Total Members: 948


Gamedev.org is a smaller forum, and of that number only a tiny amount are actually active. The hit is from guest posters. I've been an admin on many boards, admittedly not game dev ones, but if you want to stop the onslaught of spam, regardless of the topic, disabling guest posting is the best place to start. Moderation is involved of course, but it is not the sole result of it. The size of the board is irrelevant. I would except an argument that gamedev.org probably gets more hits a day, because its a wider subject. But if they disabled guest posting a lot of those mmorpg hits would dissapate as the people wouldn't reg to spam.
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carnes
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2004, 02:29:32 PM »

A problem with the Guest account is that, if you forget to log in, your comments aren't attributed to yourself. Owell  :lol:
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dudeman
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2005, 02:55:58 PM »

Ok,
I just gotta add my two cents to the Torque comparison. I agree with the original post regarding the use of Torque. Personally, I'm more pissed off than dissapointed with the whole experience of purchasing a license and trying to use Torque. I even bought the wonderful 'little' book "3D Game Programming All In One", by Ken Finney which is a great book and breaks down the whole work flow in Torque, but does not cover the engine itself. That would require another whole book.

There is little documentation for the engine. The documentation exist, but you have to hunt, and hunt all over the forums for anything useful. For the most part, I have always felt like I was using someones hastily crafted, badly documented tools, that you have to gingerly wade through to get any kind of understanding. Wait a minute! That is exactly what Torque is. A game engine in the grandest sense. Not a product or application. It was never designed with the thought that one day it would be released, and people would actually try to use it and take it beyond its humble FPS beginnings. And, that is where the problem lies.  If you have ever tried to reverse engineer some kludged software, or get some code to work that was pretty much slammed together to meet a deadline then you will understand the frustration of using Torque. That's the reality of a production game engine. It's not meant to be pretty, it's just meant to work.

Perhaps one day GargeGages will release a version that is more user friendly and conducive to development of many types of games (this version is supposedly coming up on the horizon). For now Torque is simply too painful to  do anything more than carefully "Mod" the examples that came with it. As an indie with little time, and even less money, if I gotta deal with crap, then I may as well make my own rather than try to  decipher someone elses, cuz it will most likely take me just as much time. At least then I will have a better chance of knowing exactly why something was done in a particular way. Hence, my keen interest in TV3D. There does not seem to be an easier way. You gotta roll your own.

D
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AriusMyst
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2005, 04:18:31 PM »

Quote from: "dudeman"
Ok,
I just gotta add my two cents to the Torque comparison. I agree with the original post regarding the use of Torque. Personally, I'm more pissed off than dissapointed with the whole experience of purchasing a license and trying to use Torque. I even bought the wonderful 'little' book "3D Game Programming All In One", by Ken Finney which is a great book and breaks down the whole work flow in Torque, but does not cover the engine itself. That would require another whole book.

There is little documentation for the engine. The documentation exist, but you have to hunt, and hunt all over the forums for anything useful. For the most part, I have always felt like I was using someones hastily crafted, badly documented tools, that you have to gingerly wade through to get any kind of understanding. Wait a minute! That is exactly what Torque is. A game engine in the grandest sense. Not a product or application. It was never designed with the thought that one day it would be released, and people would actually try to use it and take it beyond its humble FPS beginnings. And, that is where the problem lies.  If you have ever tried to reverse engineer some kludged software, or get some code to work that was pretty much slammed together to meet a deadline then you will understand the frustration of using Torque. That's the reality of a production game engine. It's not meant to be pretty, it's just meant to work.

Perhaps one day GargeGages will release a version that is more user friendly and conducive to development of many types of games (this version is supposedly coming up on the horizon). For now Torque is simply too painful to  do anything more than carefully "Mod" the examples that came with it. As an indie with little time, and even less money, if I gotta deal with crap, then I may as well make my own rather than try to  decipher someone elses, cuz it will most likely take me just as much time. At least then I will have a better chance of knowing exactly why something was done in a particular way. Hence, my keen interest in TV3D. There does not seem to be an easier way. You gotta roll your own.

D


 Smiley

Welcome to the fold man.
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BYTE-Smasher
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2005, 06:12:36 PM »

gotta wonder how many tv3daholics are ex-torque users.......  :wink:
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Borys Pomianek
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 10:10:13 AM »

Hey i just wanted to add:

Before i heard about tv i was thinking about buying a torgue license but iam happy that i dint do that.

Mostly becouse of the dev team there. Iam not saying that they are bad or anything. Just that they seem to lack some buisnes proffesionality.
Not the page, the page is very good.
The problem is when you want to contact the staff.

Torgue seems to be a released stable product but i cant say that it is.
It is like a free project ( but it is not free ), in non ending  flow of repairing things that dont work.

I had this situation where i wanted to ask about things related to the license and finally it came out that the lead programmer dosent know whats inside the license.
Next he told that he is working on some fixes and would like people to tell what should be fixed.
So there was the part where evrybody new atleast one big thing that dint work and the lead programer responded that this are to hard to be fixed and that hes looking for some easy things to fix.
He olso told me that it dosent matter if i can put the torgue logo instead of a flash screen into a movie becouse the movie playback is broken.
So i asked why wont they fix it.
he answered that theyre clients dint need it.
and that it wont be fixed.
After asking that if i will buy the license thus become a client and ask them to fix it, will they fix it, i got an answer to fix it my self if i want it to work.

And i think that i would get the same answer for all the stuff other people metioned that did not work.

I really wanted to buy that license but after that kind of customer service i wont buy it even for 5 bucks. I dont want to repair all the broken stuff in theire code.

Maby i just dont understand something but it is logical to me that if i buy a product for instance a bicycle i dont have to repair 40% of it.

And iam disapointed that the lead programmer of gg dosent repair stuff becouse its "to hard for him" and that he dosent know whats inside the license of the product he develope.

I understand that this is all INDIE stuff but that dosent mean that most of the product should not work, even GS that is behind the rest have less non-working elements than TGE. And from what i understaned people from gg think that it is ok that most of the stuff dosent work becouse hey its cheap isnt it ?

I personally think that a released stable commercial software should work at least at 95% no matter how much it costs.


That is why i chosed to go for tv. Becouse ( atleast from my curent exp with tv ) it basically works the way it should.  And tv being developed by if iam correct 3 people ( correct me if iam wrong please ) instead of a big team like the torgue teem and still being a lot more advanced than torgue.

BP
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