Is a lack of an editor making TV weak?

[Deadman]

Hi All,
          Im pretty much a newbie when it comes to 3d development and when I first came to TV3d, after one day deciding "i think i'll make a game :-) ", I was very overwhelmed. Now I have read the comparisons with the Torgue engine and I am aware that they seem to have a much larger following than TV and most other engines out there.

From what I could gather Torgue was never ment to be released as a versitile 3d engine, but written specifically for a game. I also gather that it requires alot of messing with the game engine code/editors etc to do anything other than a FPS with it.
This would scare the s***t out of me so be honest, and I'd much rather be able to make my own mistakes with my code content in the knowladge that the TV stuff behind magically just works.

Thing is though, I know that when i first came here I wanted to make an amazing 3d world and I didnt know where to start. Tourge is bundled with an editor which as I believe 'wets the appitite' of people just starting out in 3d dev.

Now I know without even looking at Tourge that there editor will not do everything that I want it to do without some serious tinkering, and I'd rather just make my own. However, it seems that like with banks people are prepared to stick with what they know and defend it to the death.

So maybe if TV came bundled with a an editor and other (pretty much useless) tools then those coming to it would be able to pick it up and play for a few months. In which time they would realize (like Tourge users eventually seem to do) that they need to do more than these tools can accomidate. Although unlike Tourge, these people wouldnt have to look else where for a better solution because TV already offers it.

At which point they should have realized the answers to all the stupid questions i initially asked like "why can there never be a generic world editor" and ask some marginly less stupid questions (like I am doing these days).  

What you think?
Chris.

[Brac]

To be absolutely and terribly honest:

Providing an editor is a "nice to have" and nothing else.
I couldn't even imagine an editor or let it be a couple of editors that would fullfill my needs perfectly, unless i paid about 75k $ for an AAA bigboy engine.

Some tools we use for our everyday work are done in a single day, because TV3D is just that simple to use.The first thing the usual "game dev noob" can think of is "how do i build my scenes/worlds?". That's totally valid, i agree, but it's so far from reality he wouldn't want to know by that point in time.

If you (means: someone) need an editor for your world: think of what you want to achieve, do sketches, diagrams, etc. Then think it over again. Now start laying out your file formats, XML, flat files, whatever. Validate them against your concept. Now start building your tool. That's an experience you wouldn't want to miss, EVER.

Providing an allround editor is "nice" for marketing, cuze every second potential customer will get hooked by the screenshots and whatnot, but in reality you will end up writing your own tools, which is the best way to get your feet on gamedev-ground IMHO.

[Brac]

But yeah, now that i read throught it again ...
Give ModelView some love (cheers for shader support btw) and some diversity, uprade the website, fix the bugs and all is ready for open beta that will pull tidal waves of customers ...

Best TV3D 4tw post ever

[Borys Pomianek]

Well, i can say that it would be positive for the sales for sure.

From practical point of view it would be good for the sales to have something to fiddle with the models.

I think that most people today that is starting out think that everything has to be bsp, thus including a bsp editor would be good for sure.

Here you can put screenshots of brushes being added and "cool" levels being made and a lot of people will just get the product to use the editor, becouse they dont know there are tons of 3rd party editors.

I think that a good marketing thing would be to release a hobby edition or something like that. It would include the engine, a bsp editor, some freeware model packages (i dont know if its feasible) and other freeware but usfull tools + some simple game code for people to modify + regular code snippets.

becouse people usually like to get finished products. They are more willing to buy for instance Game Maker than Game Maker 0.9.

It would require to finish and tweek some things in tv 6.5 that will be enought for that kind of work.

At the same time the development of the sdk could continue as it is now.

Anyway, its a good idea to have something. Maby the community will come out with an editor like that. Maby tv devs should make something like a contest for a generic kind of editor. Say the prize would be a multi product licensee.
Most people dont expand theyr editors more than they need. That would motivate them to add some features seen in other editors.

BP

[AriusMyst]

It already has an editor, modelview. If you're talking a level editor, then no. People who expect one for TV3D have a misguided idea of what TV is. An therefore, by definition, are in the wrong place to begin with. I honestly don't think it would grant TV more sales, people of that level of stupidity wouldn't purchase TV - they'd just use it for free. Look around, you'll see what I mean.

[Raine]

It already has an editor, modelview. If you're talking a level editor, then no. People who expect one for TV3D have a misguided idea of what TV is. An therefore, by definition, are in the wrong place to begin with. I honestly don't think it would grant TV more sales, people of that level of stupidity wouldn't purchase TV - they'd just use it for free. Look around, you'll see what I mean.

Not entirely correct.
What TV is? "Fast and Simple 3D Development". By terms, simple and fast may imply something. Or not.
This doesn't actually entails that you will have say an editor (be it a level editor, a modelviewer or anything else), bundled with the frontend. It could be there, sure. Or not.
Would a limited version editor scare customers away? Nah. I mean, it's there, you may use it or not (and then purchase TV and get a full version).
It's devs' choice. If one of the devs had the time, I mean, a huge quantity of spare time (unlikely to happen), maybe would add lotsa editors / external features.
It's not about stupidity, IMHO. I purchased my license just because I'm quite sure results will be clear, someday. Not everyone could feel the same way, and maybe the lack of an editor (its presence be right or not ), could keep the customer from a certain level of conviction. Who knows?

my two cents.  

[AriusMyst]

It already has an editor, modelview. If you're talking a level editor, then no. People who expect one for TV3D have a misguided idea of what TV is. An therefore, by definition, are in the wrong place to begin with. I honestly don't think it would grant TV more sales, people of that level of stupidity wouldn't purchase TV - they'd just use it for free. Look around, you'll see what I mean.

Not entirely correct.
What TV is? "Fast and Simple 3D Development". By terms, simple and fast may imply something. Or not.
This doesn't actually entails that you will have say an editor (be it a level editor, a modelviewer or anything else), bundled with the frontend. It could be there, sure. Or not.
Would a limited version editor scare customers away? Nah. I mean, it's there, you may use it or not (and then purchase TV and get a full version).
It's devs' choice. If one of the devs had the time, I mean, a huge quantity of spare time (unlikely to happen), maybe would add lotsa editors / external features.
It's not about stupidity, IMHO. I purchased my license just because I'm quite sure results will be clear, someday. Not everyone could feel the same way, and maybe the lack of an editor (its presence be right or not ), could keep the customer from a certain level of conviction. Who knows?

my two cents.  

My point is simple. It won't increase sales, would be a waste of the devs time and would never be what everybody would want. I was busy writing an editor less than a week after I got TV3D. Its not a hard thing to do. If you can't write an editor, how can you ever hope to write a game? - I'm trying very hard to give an opinion and not a flame on this thread. This topic has been bought up on many an occasion an it always annoys me. The situation doesn't change. Writing an editor is an excellent way in which to learn the API. You can view artwork easily using modelview, albeit more so in 6.5 than 6.2. The toolset has been expanded greatly for 6.5. People should just wait until then before worrying about editors for the actual SDK. An before somebody pipes up an says "wah wah but I don't have a license I want 6.5 now" - maybe if you were a paying CUSTOMER people would care about your whining. Oh no, thats right, you'd have 6.5 if you were a customer. It doesn't include a level editor of course, but then why should it? - Its not a game engine. If people really want to cry about it, why don't they get off their backsides and write one themselves then release it, for free, for newbies to use? - Simple answer, they know its more work than its worth an a newbie writing their own would benefit their learning curve a LOT more than just clicking an url to download. To even compare TV to TGE/TSE is incorrect. The clue is in the GE of TGE. I'm aware that some people have problems when faced with TV, especially if it is their first time developing in reatime 3D. But that is not the dev's responsibility. TV is not a school. TV is fast and simple, even without an editor. You can't get more simple than Init3DWindowed. With 6.2, and 6.5 eventually, you can BSP editors to "view a world" or whatever. But people need to realise, this is a graphics library, not a game engine. Its not point an click, it will take you a while to get your bearings, you are expected to do the legwork yourself. If its not what you're looking for, go and use something more attuned to your needs instead of whining.

Edit: Just to clarify, whilst this may read like a flame, it isn't one. Or at least, isn't my intention.

[Raine]

I understand your point and I can agree almost on anything, even though people whine as long as they don't know things, and maybe a few things just can't be known - if someone else doesn't tell you how. Could happen.

By the way, even though TV is not just a game engine, what a game dev tells as a "level", a different kind of developer tells it as something else, but the content is the same, editable in the very same way - so an editor would match the needs of almost everyone (that with tv being a graphics library and not a game engine). Don't you think? Having said that, I honestly agree with you when you say that a first step could be writing our own editor. Nothing more to add. Mine was just an idea about the editor availability, I haven't even expressed a real preference about, cause I don't care, actually ^^.

I was just concerned about the concept of "stupidity" in your previous post  :lol:

[AriusMyst]

I was just concerned about the concept of "stupidity" in your previous post  :lol:

Yea, i'm not very subtle/tactful.  :lol:

An I do agree that people might not know things. Thats what this forum an IRC is for. I don't have a problem helping people.  :wink:

[Borys Pomianek]

Arius with all due respect: You had an editor in the making but i never actually seen it being realesed, so maby its not as easy.

I agree with your points but i think that you cant blaim people for wanting point n click.

I still think that it would boost up the sales. Look at tge, its sh** and sells really good.

I know this topic was brought up many times but its "stupid" here to give same answers every time  :wink: .

I dissagree with your point about people being stupid. I think the word stupid, retarded etc. is very overused sometimes. A company should not care of the level of inteligence of theyr customer but more about selling theyr product.

I think its crucial for the company image to be open minded.

Maby that "stupid" guy that wanted an editor, and point n click is a genius story writer and he will make the next best selling game with Game Maker just becouse TV dint offer him an editor.

I say, dont close the doors. Proffesional developers are generaly immune to typical marketing, its abvious. The idea with having a selling point like an editor is to get more hobbists buying.

Do you care if that person will learn anything or not ?
Its important that he buys the product.

Iam not talkibg about realesing such a thing for free here but iam quite sure that including it in the 6.5 package would be a grand idea.

People would actually stop comparing TGE and TV and just buy tv becouse they would see all the great features and nothing less than in the TGE package.

Even if TV is not a game engine, many people think of it as soo and many people are looking for one. If it does not cost you anything, its good to sell your product to those people.

I would not buy tv even if it had an editor, why ? becouse iam not a pro developer of 3d software, i dont need it now. I can wait and can even write my own tools slowly when i have time.

The big guys dont even care about webpages or marketing, if they will buy tv licenses, you wont even know about it.

So instead of worrying about TV becoming a game engine in peoples mind, maby its more usfull to actually focus on marketing TV as a noob friendly software. Not the other way around.

 

BP

[AriusMyst]

Arius with all due respect: You had an editor in the making but i never actually seen it being realesed, so maby its not as easy.

I agree with your points but i think that you cant blaim people for wanting point n click.

I still think that it would boost up the sales. Look at tge, its sh** and sells really good.

I know this topic was brought up many times but its "stupid" here to give same answers every time  :wink: .

I dissagree with your point about people being stupid. I think the word stupid, retarded etc. is very overused sometimes. A company should not care of the level of inteligence of theyr customer but more about selling theyr product.

I think its crucial for the company image to be open minded.

Maby that "stupid" guy that wanted an editor, and point n click is a genius story writer and he will make the next best selling game with Game Maker just becouse TV dint offer him an editor.

I say, dont close the doors. Proffesional developers are generaly immune to typical marketing, its abvious. The idea with having a selling point like an editor is to get more hobbists buying.

Do you care if that person will learn anything or not ?
Its important that he buys the product.

Iam not talkibg about realesing such a thing for free here but iam quite sure that including it in the 6.5 package would be a grand idea.

People would actually stop comparing TGE and TV and just buy tv becouse they would see all the great features and nothing less than in the TGE package.

Even if TV is not a game engine, many people think of it as soo and many people are looking for one. If it does not cost you anything, its good to sell your product to those people.

I would not buy tv even if it had an editor, why ? becouse iam not a pro developer of 3d software, i dont need it now. I can wait and can even write my own tools slowly when i have time.

The big guys dont even care about webpages or marketing, if they will buy tv licenses, you wont even know about it.

So instead of worrying about TV becoming a game engine in peoples mind, maby its more usfull to actually focus on marketing TV as a noob friendly software. Not the other way around.

 

BP

With no respect, cause you aren't due any, why on earth would I release an in-house editor( Mage is currently at v9.5  )?

An as I recall, version 1 ceased because of college commitments. Not that a retard like you would understand the importance of an education.

Btw, WHY are you here? - you're not even a programmer using the TV3D SDK. You just make useless and dull overly LONG boring posts that make no sense whatsoever. An no, I don't pay ANY attention to the way TV is marketted. Thats not my job, its not yours either, its Darqs. If I cared about TV's marketting strategy I would reccomend that 6.5 NEVER be released for free an that they use 6.2 as a simple demo. You don't make money by giving your software away. An yes, when I refer to stupid freeloaders I am typing with people like YOU in mind. Why don't you just go off to a forum where you actually DO something other than wind up the regs?. EVERYBODY I know complains about your posts borys, they have the courtesy to ignore. I don't. If you wanna try an flame me again, do so at your own risk. An do it in a PM. Cause i'm not getting banned for the likes of you. I will respond in kind.

[jviper]

[ad] Gotta level editor for TV3D? Release it. Show the developers and newbies across the world your  skills in level design, programming, creativity, and software developement. Don't have a level edititor? No problem! Write one. Writing an editor will give you the chance to develope your skills in, programming, game development, and software developement. And as a bonus, you get to re-use these skills in other projects, big, or small. But wait, there's more: If you act now, you garentee within as little as 10-20 years, when you buy a liscense, you will be pro-lifically selling your products, making money, gaining contacts, and a reputation for you children, your grandchildren, and many generations to come. So, what are you waiting for? Get those fingers typing! Get that mind working! And let your creativity LIVE. [/ad]  :lol:  :lol:

Oh, by the way, I beleive a level editor is not required for the devs to produce considering the features that are avalible in the engine. Will it effect TV3D's sales? Maybe. But for those who don't buy TV3D solely because of the absence of a level editor, will either be satisfied with the inflexibility of another Package, or will discover the inflexibility of that package.
Thank you.

[Arimuth]

Since this topic heading in its current direction is sure to become locked - I shall chime in quickly.

Anyone who honestly believes that a tool added to the suite would not increase sales?  Of course it would.  It also makes for pretty powerful marketing.  Screenshots of REAL development tools.  To the world of the non-coder(and more than a few hobby-coders) the image tells all..

That having been said - Do I want our devs to divert their attention to an editor - absolutely not.  Perchance TV will grow to the point of a staff that can work on 'tool' development.  It isn't easy stuff - it isn't pointless - it isn't something unimportant - just not something that should become a priority in front of the engine driving it all.

I'm sure the Dev's would love for some of our more industrious coders to develop tools (and applications) that make their product look good.  Every success in the user base leads to success of the engine.

In the end, this is a discussion board for opinions - lets respect everyones.

[Flatline]

Maby that "stupid" guy that wanted an editor, and point n click is a genius story writer and he will make the next best selling game with Game Maker just becouse TV dint offer him an editor.

You're having a laugh, right? A game 'written' using a strictly defined game engine is likely to outsell one written with TV? I really don't think so.

Even if TV is not a game engine, many people think of it as soo and many people are looking for one. If it does not cost you anything, its good to sell your product to those people.

Why? It's not going to be what they want, they're only going to complain anyway. Besides, the people with actual commitment to creating a game with an eye to actually publishing (IE the ones that'll PAY for a license) it won't want some arbitrarily created level editor, they'll want something relevant to THEIR game. Which, I realise was Arius' point, but I feel it can't be stressed often enough.

So instead of worrying about TV becoming a game engine in peoples mind, maby its more usfull to actually focus on marketing TV as a noob friendly software. Not the other way around.

Maybe you want to reread that and think about it some more. No-one is worried about it becoming a game engine in people's minds, that's YOUR point of view, not Arius' or mine. And why would Sylvain, dS and Arli want to market TV to a bunch of people who can't even program? They've selling what amounts to YEARS of work to people who have enough knowledge to make full use of it. I'd hate to imagine how they'd feel if all their engine was used for was creating a bunch of genre clones.

[micmanos]

I'm a STUPID RETARD because i spend a full 15' reading this thread and i still haven't come to a conclusion .....  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[darqSHADOW]

Ok, settle down in here, or this thread WILL get locked.

I agree with many of the points in this thread, so I will just summarize.

TV3D is marketed towards PROGRAMMERS, we do not want our SDK (note, S...D...K...) to become another Torque, as that is their niche.  We have achieved something that no other SDK has been able to do, true multilanguage compatiblity.  This is our primary marketing force right there, we are easy to use and can be used by any programming language you want to use.  (Anyone remember back in 6.2 when Waterman was trying APL and couldn't get it working?  Well with 6.5 he's working fine with his funky little language.)  

Another thing to note here, what most people here are referring to as a level editor, I would call a scene editor instead.  6.5 will have a level editor, in the form of being able to compile TVO's from static meshes or from .MAP files created using any old BSP editor (ie Hammer).  A scene editor, on the other hand, will place static meshes, levels, etc in the scene for later.  This, too, is becoming easier in 6.5 with the advent of the TVS format, allowing users to save and load an entire scene with one command.  (Talk about making writing an editor easier!)

Do we wish we had a scene editor?  Sure we do.  Not so that newbies can point and click together a "game" -- but so that those existing users who already know TV inside and out and get content into their frameworks faster.  Why don't have have one?  The same reason 6.5 isn't released yet, time constraints.  Perhaps once 6.5 is in open beta, or final release we can focus more on tools of this nature, but right now we are committed to getting 6.5 out the door.

Hope this clears the air a bit, and perhaps I missed a few points.  I will be monitoring this thread closely, so keep it clean, and keep it civil and we can have a good discussion about this.

DS

[azherdev]

Of course, the next LOGICAL question is:  When will we see 6.5 in all of its glory?  Mwwaaaa haaa haaaa haa ahaaaa haaaaaaa.  I like the TVS idea a lot.

[micmanos]

DS, always 'the voice of reason'. At least, since i've been around ...  

[AriusMyst]

Yea, i'd forgotten about TVS, been a long time since it was mentioned.  

[jviper]

Hey, I tried to make light of the situation