"Game Engine" vs "Rendering Engine"

[Xanatus]

[EDIT]
This thread was based on a big misunderstanding and was getting pointless. Everthing you read beneath this lines is just crap - ignore it!
Sorry for starting a such senseless discussion.





-----------------------------

This is not directly a engine comparison. At the Thingy Engine thread, I had read that many guys here are thinking TV3D is not a game engine, which shows me that many of you never used a rendering engine.

My profession is software developing for a german company which is distributing 3d CAD software. I did use many rendering engines as well as game engines. Thats why i know the real difference very well. For out pupose it would be impossibly to use a game engine such as TV3D.

TRUEVISION3D is a Game Engine!
This thread shall show you why tv3d is more specific as you actually think.

What is a Game Engine good for?
For making a game, tools for making a game (such as world editors), screensaver, presentations, aso...

What is a Rendering Engine good for?
For making CAD software, object editors, software where you'll need full access over everything you like to render.

What are the key features of a 3D Game Engine?

:arrow: Ease of use - You dont have to care about internaly things such as gemeotry data and depending what the engine is for, you can do many complicate tasks with only a few command.
:arrow: Performance & Graphics - Game Engine's are oriented to get the most fps possible while rendering the best looking graphics.
:arrow: Game Specific Features - Collision, Physic, Sound/Music System, GUI, Shader, Mesh Animations, AI, Pathfinding, Blend-/Bump-/Detail- & Normalmapping are just a few of the features you will mostly only find in a Game Engine!
:arrow: Tools - Depending on what the engine is for: you get world editors, effekt editors, editor plugins, editor exporters, and so on...

What are the key features of a 3D Rendering Engine?

:arrow: Direct Data Access - you have full control over everything you put into the rendering pipeline.
:arrow: Direct Gemeotry Handling - You have a lot of commands to create and edit 3d geometrys in a more easier way than a Game Engine would allow you.
:arrow: Compatibility - A Rendering Engine has to be able to run on every machine and every usual operating system out there.
:arrow: Most benefit on a Rendering Engine is a Raytrace Rendere which allows you to create highly detailed renderings of your 3d meshs (not in realtime though).

To show you the difference in the programming architecture, here's a sample what a rendering engine source could look like:

Code:

// Declare our geometry objects
R_SCENE* pScene = new R_SCENE;
R_GROUP* pLayer = new R_GROUP;
R_GROUP* pGroup = new R_GROUP;
R_GEOMETRY* pGeometry = new R_GEOMETRY;

// Set pLayer to our object layer
pLayer->SetLayer( true );

// Start our geometry stream
R_STREAM* GeomStream;
R_STREAM s = GeomStream->OpenStream( pGeometry );

// create our geometry - a simple ground plain
s.Begin();
s.NewPolygon();
s.NewPolygonSurface();

s.MakeVertex( 0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f );
s.MakeVertex( 1.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f );
s.MakeVertex( 0.0f, 0.0f, 1.0f );
s.MakeVertex( 1.0f, 0.0f, 1.0f );

s.EndPolygonSurface();
s.EndPolygon();
s.End();

// Close our stream
pGeometry = GeomStream->CloseStream( s );

// Add the geometry to a group
pGroup->AddNode( pGeometry );
pGroup->SetPriority( R_E_HIGH );
// Add the group to our layer
pLayer->AddNode( pGroup );
// Add the layer to our scene
pScene->AddNode( pLayer );

// create a lightsource
R_LIGHT* pLight = pScene->CreateDirectionalLight();
// create a default camera
R_CAMERA* pCam  = pScene->CreateCamera();
pCam->AutoLookAt( pLayer );

// create a rendering device
R_RENDER* pRenderer;
pRenderer->SetDestination( hwnd );

// draw our scene
pRenderer->Render( pScene );

I just thought it would be good to know that.

HTH,
Xanatus


PS. Let the subjective discussions and flamewars begin ;-)


EDIT:
======== FAQ =========


The difference between Rendering Engine and game Engine is very thin
No it's not. Only hard to see if you didn't tried both.

DirectX is a pure rendering engine
Nop, definitely not. You would be able to write a rendering engine using dx, though.
Engines are here to make things esier. For instance, with a rendering engine, a polygon can have more than 3 vertices and internally the engine is building the triangles for rendering.

TV3D is a generic game engine!
Thats true! But its a game engine though even if its not made with a specific game genre in mind.

How about saying that TV3D is a virtual reality engine that can be used for both games and simulations?
Why shouldn't you be able to make a simulation with a game engine?

i think what people are trying to say is well tv3d is fully capable of being considered a game engine because it has all the neccessary parts to be so, people don't want the tv3d engine to be limited to the name of game engine, because it is capable of doing so much more. also, game engines usually revolve around 1 specific type of game. Tv3d allows you to program whatever you want.
Lets have a look at the features which current game engines have. eg. CryEngine was made to make the FPS game FarCry. Does it mean this engine can only be used to make a shooter? If yes iam wondering what engine they used to make theres world editor?
When I read what features CryEngine have, i don't see any reason why I should use TV3D instead of CryEngine to make for instance a RPG, do you? Also the world editor's of those new engines are very entity based und useable for any kind of game. If you purchase a lincense you will get the whole sourcecode of those engines, too. CryEngine will come with many shooter based features you wont need for anything else such as FPS AI or something, but that doesn't make it a game engine.

Just cause tv wants versatility and the abilitiy to do as many things as possible doesn't make it a game engine.
If tv whould have now a new class for eg. fps ai, whould it now be a game engine even if this doesn't affect any other classes?

Tools: hmmm, isn't this what everyone is complaining about tv, NOT HAVING?
As i said, it's optinal and dependig on what the engine is for. Tools don't make any changes to the api and even if u are using the UnrealEngine, you dont have to use there's editors.

Raytracer: well, art studios are the only thing that i would see this benifiting, but most people prefer real time programs, for which tv is built. that doesn't make it a game engine though
Raytracing for a renderer is the same as physics for a game engine these days. I just want to mention this to show something what would be almost impossible to get with a game engine in order to the internal data management.

Direct Geometry Handling: well, in reading your code, i see you used the makevertex function. This, im guessing would be easily comparable to tv's addvertex function?
Yes, but the difference is that you have about 50 different possibilities for just making simple geometries. eg. AddVertex(), AddIndexedVertex(), AddSurfaceVertex(), aso...

i just don't think limiting tv to the name of 3d game engine is right, because it is capable of so much more
which engine isn't?

My vote goes for Rendering Engine. Because all I have to do is tell it what to render where and it does it.
Every 3d engine does so. It isn't a rendering engine becasue it's based on render quality (graphics) more than optimized geometry rendering. For instance: the rendering engine we are currently using is able to rendern a milion of polygons without need us to care about the lod handling (we just have to give our geometry priotities). Also, why does a render engine need collision, shaders etc. ?


EDIT2:
======== FAQ - PART 2 =========


I think that having a new class for FPS AI would make TV into a game engine, because now it is becoming game and genre specific. However, you also have to specify here how in depth the AI would become. If you were to take it right down to the point where you set a boolean variable for friend or enemy, and tv would take care of the rest, then yes, it would be a game engine in every sense of the word.
Truevision3D has BSP support which i dont need for my RTS, are you now saying it's a game engine?
And i'am not talking of ki where you just have the option to set some booleans and the engine is doing everything else without beeing full controlable I would call "Platform Engine" or "Game SDK".

well, im guessing that when they made there world editor, they stayed out of the more genre specific classes and focused on things like their mesh and scene and landscape classes. These are more generic classes, that every game and 3D engine will have. they are neccessary for the engine to run, and there is really no specific genre to them...
Exactly, and thats what you need to make a game. If you dont like the "generic" features then you dont have to use them.

...This is not what TV does. So, if you wanted to use the Cryengine for an RPG, that would be fine, however, you would have to tweak certain things, because you would no longer require FPS AI, and it would basically be slowing your program down and not giving the required results...
For my project i dont need BSP, Physics, Shader, Pathfinding... does it now mean it slows my program down even if I dont initialize those features? If it's a visible slowing down TV3D is very bad programmed.

...I noticed that it said that you could have the source code to it as well. Well, that all great and everything, but honestly, the cryengine has more code than TV does, and TV is a lot of code. That is many thousands of pages of advanced C++ code to weed through, and since you didn't program it, many things will more than likely not make sense to you. you would also, if you wanted to change anything, have to make changes through the entire program, so if your really want to go through all that, be my guest.[/b]
In times of OOP it's very easy to remove, add or change something without having to change the entire program. I used many open source engines without having problems finding something. By engines where you will get the entire source you can be sure that the source is very well cmmented and easy to edit as my expirience showed.

you stated this

Tools - Depending on what the engine is for: you get world editors, effekt editors, editor plugins, editor exporters, and so on...
under game engine

and then this

As i said, it's optinal and dependig on what the engine is for. Tools don't make any changes to the api and even if u are using the UnrealEngine, you dont have to use there's editors.

aren't your two statements opposing one another?[/i][/b]
No, because the fact that tv3d doesnt have a world editor does not mean it coudn't have one. If i look at freeworld3d i would think it whould proper to the purpose of tv3d because it's a non-generic world editor (only outdoor though). The fact that tv3d doesn't come with a World Editor like that does not mean it coudn't. Otherwise, it even redirects you to the geoscape website on the tv startpage to get a world editor seperatly.

In half life, they used entities. Many of these entities included things like ammo and powerup's. I have the valve editor for bsp's. I have the option to place those in the bsp. However, Of what use are they in the castle in my RPG??? i don't even have a gun...  This is what makes it genre specific.
BSP is only made for shooter indoor maps and the editor is only designed for valves games (which are only shooters) too. You dont have to use BSP for you game and if you criticze the editor keep in mind that tv3d has also BSP support. If you look at the Unreal2 editor (which for instance comes with RainboxSix Ravenshield) you'll notice that you can make your own entity types.

But the difference between game and render engine is that you have in a real render engine about 50 different possibilities for just making simple geometries. eg. AddVertex(), AddIndexedVertex(), AddSurfaceVertex(), aso...   - well, honestly, i really don't see what you would use any of these for. Most of the meshes that are created are done in an art studio, which will weld verticies and optimize the mesh prior to exporting it.
A render engine isn't here to load a mesh made with an editor. A render engine is for making the editor which is making the mesh for your game engine.

You can go through DX in tv, through the tv internals, and you can access everything through there. You can even access things like the verticies in Actors.
Yeah, and you can even write your own engine using dx or any other api (render engines are prefering ogl)

i just don't think limiting tv to the name of 3d game engine is right, because it is capable of so much more
- which engine isn't?

well, lets look at the half life engine for instance. i don't think that they will be using it to make a new outdoor RPG anytime soon.
And what about Lineage2 (a mmorpg) which is actually using the Unreal2 engine?

[Mutos]

Hi Xanatus,


I'll be first to fire, just to say by ur def the line is thin between rendering and game engine as it's basically a question of access depth to internal data, a cursor-like criterion.

To me TV3D is more of a game engine than a rendering engine. DirectX is a pure rendering engine. TV3D takes it and adds a layer of ease of use and game-oriented features.

But it's a generic game engine, and that's good. If TV3D were build w/ FPS in mind it would have FPS tools. Idem for RTS or any other genre. But it would aso be limited to that and this domain... That's not the case, anyways, and that's better.

It would be good though that tools for multiple gamigng domains be released, it would enhance TV3D's attractivity. But please never never let the core package be limited to one domain ... despite the amazing number of MMORPG coders wannabee on the forums  

[dolmsted]

How about saying that TV3D is a virtual reality engine that can be used for both games and simulations?

[JohnPierre]

i think what people are trying to say is well tv3d is fully capable of being considered a game engine because it has all the neccessary parts to be so, people don't want the tv3d engine to be limited to the name of game engine, because it is capable of doing so much more.  also, game engines usually revolve around 1 specific type of game.  Tv3d allows you to program whatever you want.  

Game Specific Features - Collision, Physic, Sound/Music System, GUI, Shader, Mesh Animations, AI, Pathfinding, Blend-/Bump-/Detail- & Normalmapping are just a few of the features you will mostly only find in a Game Engine!

this isn't accurate, i recently wrote an educational program for my physics class that involved the collision and physics, shaaders and mesh animation with all the mapping you just mentioned.  Just cause tv wants versatility and the abilitiy to do as many things as possible doesn't make it a game engine.  

Performance & Graphics - Game Engine's are oriented to get the most fps possible while rendering the best looking graphics.

Wow, i certainly hope, reguardless of weather or not its a game engine this is true.

Tools - Depending on what the engine is for: you get world editors, effekt editors, editor plugins, editor exporters, and so on...

hmmm, isn't this what everyone is complaining about tv, NOT HAVING?

As for ease of use, i think again, this is nice to have, but you can still go into tv through DX9 and access just about anything that you want.  

Most benefit on a Rendering Engine is a Raytrace Rendere which allows you to create highly detailed renderings of your 3d meshs (not in realtime though).

well, art studios are the only thing that i would see this benifiting, but most people prefer real time programs, for which tv is built.  that doesn't make it a game engine though

Direct Gemeotry Handling - You have a lot of commands to create and edit 3d geometrys in a more easier way than a Game Engine would allow you.

well, in reading your code, i see you used the makevertex function.  This, im guessing would be easily comparable to tv's addvertex function?

i just don't think limiting tv to the name of 3d game engine is right, because it is capable of so much more

p.s. i don't mean to offend anyone with this, i know a lot of people are going off real easy and i don't want to start anything up again.  Sry if you get mad by this.

[AriusMyst]

i think what people are trying to say is well tv3d is fully capable of being considered a game engine because it has all the neccessary parts to be so, people don't want the tv3d engine to be limited to the name of game engine, because it is capable of doing so much more.  also, game engines usually revolve around 1 specific type of game.  Tv3d allows you to program whatever you want.  

Game Specific Features - Collision, Physic, Sound/Music System, GUI, Shader, Mesh Animations, AI, Pathfinding, Blend-/Bump-/Detail- & Normalmapping are just a few of the features you will mostly only find in a Game Engine!

this isn't accurate, i recently wrote an educational program for my physics class that involved the collision and physics, shaaders and mesh animation with all the mapping you just mentioned.  Just cause tv wants versatility and the abilitiy to do as many things as possible doesn't make it a game engine.  

Performance & Graphics - Game Engine's are oriented to get the most fps possible while rendering the best looking graphics.

Wow, i certainly hope, reguardless of weather or not its a game engine this is true.

Tools - Depending on what the engine is for: you get world editors, effekt editors, editor plugins, editor exporters, and so on...

hmmm, isn't this what everyone is complaining about tv, NOT HAVING?

As for ease of use, i think again, this is nice to have, but you can still go into tv through DX9 and access just about anything that you want.  

Most benefit on a Rendering Engine is a Raytrace Rendere which allows you to create highly detailed renderings of your 3d meshs (not in realtime though).

well, art studios are the only thing that i would see this benifiting, but most people prefer real time programs, for which tv is built.  that doesn't make it a game engine though

Direct Gemeotry Handling - You have a lot of commands to create and edit 3d geometrys in a more easier way than a Game Engine would allow you.

well, in reading your code, i see you used the makevertex function.  This, im guessing would be easily comparable to tv's addvertex function?

i just don't think limiting tv to the name of 3d game engine is right, because it is capable of so much more

p.s. i don't mean to offend anyone with this, i know a lot of people are going off real easy and i don't want to start anything up again.  Sry if you get mad by this.

I agree with everything JP said, i was going too post something similar this morning but i couldn't be bothered. Compare Tv too darkbasic, or 3dstate, or genesis, or torque. You'll suddenly realise calling Tv a game engine, which puts it in the same class as all the above mentioned engines, is actually fairly ludicrious. Its not a rendering engine either, really, its an all purpose 3d engine. Its capable of a multitude of things an its application is very generic.

[Mutos]

Hi all,


Thin is the line :twisted:

[Oxygen]

DX9 is an API not an engine.

Coding in DX9 even with C# using Managed SDK is too much for 1 person to get something done in a reasonable amount of time. TV does all the hard stuff and lets you get to productivity. Whatever your project is. You could make Reenactment Software for court, FPS game, RTS game, data analyizer software, and any other kind of visualization program you could dream of.

My vote goes for Rendering Engine. Because all I have to do is tell it what to render where and it does it. Most of the code I've been working on is managing the objects. The actual rendering of the objects is the easy part thanks to TV.

[LittleCook]

Here's a little story that might help people see what's going on with this arguement:

 A scout leader had recently come under fire from the local media about the morality of his decision to take children as young as 10 years old out shooting. He was getting quite annoyed by the questions that the tabloids were asking him. A female reporter then said to him "Aren't you worried that you are equipping these children to be murderers?", to which he snapped back, "You're equipped to be a prostitute, but are you one?"

One vote for rendering engine.

-LittleCook

[AriusMyst]

Here's a little story that might help people see what's going on with this arguement:

 A scout leader had recently come under fire from the local media about the morality of his decision to take children as young as 10 years old out shooting. He was getting quite annoyed by the questions that the tabloids were asking him. A female reporter then said to him "Aren't you worried that you are equipping these children to be murderers?", to which he snapped back, "You're equipped to be a prostitute, but are you one?"

One vote for rendering engine.

-LittleCook

lmao, yeap, nuff said i feel.  :lol:

[Xanatus]

i gave some statements by updating my post.

p.s. i don't mean to offend anyone with this, i know a lot of people are going off real easy and i don't want to start anything up again.  Sry if you get mad by this.

Not as long as i can defend

[AriusMyst]

I think the general consensus here is, just because it can be used too make games, doesn't make it a game engine. I'm sure if the tv team were too release their records of license owners the application use of the engine versus game use would show it is used more for applications. I could be wrong, but i remember hearing about the BBC and NASA both have licenses - these aren't game companies. They have the money too buy the far cry engine - why didn't they? - simple, tv is more capable of their needs than a game engine is.

[JohnPierre]

ok, first off

Just cause tv wants versatility and the abilitiy to do as many things as possible doesn't make it a game engine.
If tv whould have now a new class for eg. fps ai, whould it now be a game engine even if this doesn't affect any other classes?

I think that having a new class for FPS AI would make TV into a game engine, because now it is becoming game and genre specific.  However, you also have to specify here how in depth the AI would become.  If you were to take it right down to the point where you set a boolean variable for friend or enemy, and tv would take care of the rest, then yes, it would be a game engine in every sense of the word.  However, if we're talking AI as in maybe simple path finding, such as Dijkstra, A* or D*, and maybe a few other simple algorithms, that all could easily attain multiple purposes, both game and non game focused then no, i don't think it would make it a game engine.  I was reading on the crytek web site,

CryENGINE Sandbox: Is a real-time game editor offering "What you see is what you PLAY" feedback.

this was the first thing on their features list.  It basically allows you to point and click and the AI will handle itself.  In this case, i think that it is being very genre specific, and it would take a lot of tweaking of their code in order to change the output to what you want.  

i think what people are trying to say is well tv3d is fully capable of being considered a game engine because it has all the neccessary parts to be so, people don't want the tv3d engine to be limited to the name of game engine, because it is capable of doing so much more. also, game engines usually revolve around 1 specific type of game. Tv3d allows you to program whatever you want.
Lets have a look at the features which current game engines have. eg. CryEngine was made to make the FPS game FarCry. Does it mean this engine can only be used to make a shooter? If yes iam wondering what engine they used to make theres world editor?
When I read what features CryEngine have, i don't see any reason why I should use TV3D instead of CryEngine to make for instance a RPG, do you? Also the world editor's of those new engines are very entity based und useable for any kind of game. If you purchase a lincense you will get the whole sourcecode of those engines, too. CryEngine will come with many shooter based features you wont need for anything else such as FPS AI or something, but that doesn't make it a game engine.

well, im guessing that when they made there world editor, they stayed out of the more genre specific classes and focused on things like their mesh and scene and landscape classes.  These are more generic classes, that every game and 3D engine will have.  they are neccessary for the engine to run, and there is really no specific genre to them.  You can of course, if it is a game engine, tweak things to be faster specifically for what you're making, but slower for everything else.  This is not what TV does.  So, if you wanted to use the Cryengine for an RPG, that would be fine, however, you would have to tweak certain things, because you would no longer require FPS AI, and it would basically be slowing your program down and not giving the required results.  I noticed that it said that you could have the source code to it as well.  Well, that all great and everything, but honestly, the cryengine has more code than TV does, and TV is a lot of code.  That is many thousands of pages of advanced C++ code to weed through, and since you didn't program it, many things will more than likely not make sense to you.  you would also, if you wanted to change anything, have to make changes through the entire program, so if your really want to go through all that, be my guest.  

CryEngine will come with many shooter based features you wont need for anything else such as FPS AI or something, but that doesn't make it a game engine.

well, Again, writing a ton of code for one specific type of game in my mind does make it a game engine.  You would have to rewrite those entire classes if you wanted to make a different type of game, or make them from scratch, while still following the layout of the engine.  

you stated this

Tools - Depending on what the engine is for: you get world editors, effekt editors, editor plugins, editor exporters, and so on...

under game engine

and then this

As i said, it's optinal and dependig on what the engine is for. Tools don't make any changes to the api and even if u are using the UnrealEngine, you dont have to use there's editors.

aren't your two statements opposing one another? you said one of the key parts to a game engine is having tools specifically what the purpose of the engine it.  When you say, "but you don't need to use the tools" are you compairing not using the tools in a game engine to not having tools in TV?  The tools in this case are what make the engine specific to that genre, while tv's tools, for textures, materials and particle effects can be used for anything.  

In half life, they used entities.  Many of these entities included things like ammo and powerup's.  I have the valve editor for bsp's.  I have the option to place those in the bsp.  However, Of what use are they in the castle in my RPG??? i don't even have a gun... :cry: This is what makes it genre specific.

Raytracer: well, art studios are the only thing that i would see this benifiting, but most people prefer real time programs, for which tv is built. that doesn't make it a game engine though
Raytracing for a renderer is the same as physics for a game engine these days. I just want to mention this to show something what would be almost impossible to get with a game engine in order to the internal data management.

well, the tv physics engine in 6.5, like i said earlier can be used for a lot more than games.  Most game engines don't even use real physics because its faster.  Tv uses newtonian physics to be very realistic.  I have used the physics for things like a domino program for physics class, and i have several programs for that class using the physics engine, non of which are games.  With your last sentence, im guessing you mean you can't access the internals for the physics engine? well, im not sure why you would need to, with tv, you can create very simple shapes as physics bodies.  Things like cubes, spheres, and cylinders (there are many more choices), and you can get very basic.  The reason TV did this is primarily because people wanted things simplified, no own wants to spend all there time learning physics when they didn't even take that class.  Sure, phsics can be used for vehicles in games.  but they could also be used for things like that truck driving program that is being written.  In a game engine, they usually have things that are very specific, vehicle collisions and ragdoll collisions, as well as a few more, but nothing else.  TV already has buoyancy working for all its objects.

Yes, but the difference is that you have about 50 different possibilities for just making simple geometries. eg. AddVertex(), AddIndexedVertex(), AddSurfaceVertex(), aso...

well, honestly, i really don't see what you would use any of these for.  Most of the meshes that are created are done in an art studio, which will weld verticies and optimize the mesh prior to exporting it.  All textures are mapped as well.  You can go through DX in tv, through the tv internals, and you can access everything through there.  You can even access things like the verticies in Actors.  I have done that multiple times, and it is relatively simple.  If you're really looking for something this low level, then maybe you'd be better off with pure DX, but i decided that after a year of that, i'd just stick with TV, since everything is so much more optimized and i can program in the language i want.  Honestly, i can't see where using these examples you gave would come into play (example please).  Also, i forgot to mention.  You are free to write your own pixel and vertex shaders.  these are capable of accessing just about everything as well.  

i just don't think limiting tv to the name of 3d game engine is right, because it is capable of so much more
which engine isn't?

well, lets look at the half life engine for instance.  i don't think that they will be using it to make a new outdoor RPG anytime soon.  

There,  i think i answered all the things directed towards me.

whew. lots of writing  :lol:

P.S. again, don't misinterpret any of this as attempting to be offensive.  Well, i guess if you think of it in terms of being offensive and defensive, and you are on defense then yeah, i guess im on offense...lol

[potato]

TV3D is making huge strides to becoming a game engine, but it is not.

A game engine is among the likes of Torque, Unreal, Q3, Source, etc. In short, a game engine is something that has a defined framework for making a game - an existing map format that contains entity info, a model format that is able to integrate game-related data into its file, not just graphics data, AI scriptability, etc.

TV3D is a set of tools that can be used to develop a game engine, but I would disagree with the notion that it IS a game engine, though it looks like 6.5 is a very large step in the right direction, what with a new map file format, models, physics, etc.

[Mutos]

Hi all,


What do u mean by ?

6.5 is a very large step in the right direction

I just hope 6.5 will retain all Rendering-Engine features of 6.2 even if it goes more Game-Engine-like

[potato]

An effective game engine will allow the coder to dig as far down into the guts of the engine as he/she desires. A game engine will also abstract much of this work so that a coder does not HAVE to. They CAN but they are not forced to code much of the tedious code that a game engine should already provide.

ex. Maps

Right now TV only provides the graphical base for maps. We have to handle loading of objects, placing them, assigning them game-related properties (because they don't come with the mesh), any culling to speed up rendering, lighting (lightmaps aren't supported with meshes), handle entity events, etc etc.

A full game engine will support all of that, and with the new map format of TV 6.5 it's one step closer to being in full support of its own map format.

Integration of the physics engine is also one other thing. A coder should not have to deal with setting up a crapload of different joint types and callbacks to get a generic crate bouncing around. The physics should be extensible to those who want to tread there, but also simple enough so that someone can set up a box and have it bounce around a landscape without having to worry about normal vectors and instantaneous velocity.

A full game engine, again, will abstract all that for the coder's benefit.

Right now I've got my TV project on hiatus (and dare I say it, shopping for a new engine) simply because I can't get past the major hurdles facing the project without TV 6.5.

Examples:

- I need maps for my game. With BSP support going out the window (and not very good in the first place) I will have to set up my own map format.

- But how? I have no access to any lighting data for any objects. The TVMesh object doesn't support lightmaps, which I need because the regular lighting engine is neither fast nor robust enough to light up a good-looking map.

- Fine. Say I was able to put together a mesh-collection map with lightmaps and all... What then? I need entities in my map. I want my map files integrated into one (or a couple) files. I want "map1.map" instead of the geometry, textures, entity info, and EVERYTHING in separate files. TV doesn't allow me access to a filebuffer though, so it's not like I can incorporate all this data into a single unified file (ie. saving multiple meshes + textures to a single file, extracting them myself and feeding the data to TV directly, and bypass the TVMesh.Load calls altogether).

- Fine. Say I figured out that entity and saving problem. What about collision? A game engine needs to provide me with some basic collision detection ability with maps, and I emphasize BASIC. I shouldn't have to get the normal of collision, point of impact, and work the math myself. Sliding collision with the map should be available (it's only available with BSP, and even that one is very very buggy).

All these things are preventing TV from being called a game engine, because these are not related to graphics (except the lightmap thing, which I understand is in TV 6.5). These are non-graphical things that facilitate a coder's ability to make a game.

[Xanatus]

Thread updated.

@Potato, I would simply difference between Game Engine (which is a engine for making a game) and a Platform Engine (which is the engine of a game engine for making a generic game). Your facts are more pointing to a platform engine.

[Dan]

TRUEVISION3D is a Game Engine!
This thread shall show you why tv3d is more specific as you actually think.

What is a Game Engine good for?
For making a game, tools for making a game (such as world editors), screensaver, presentations, aso...

What is a Rendering Engine good for?
For making CAD software, object editors, software where you'll need full access over everything you like to render.

What piffle.  :roll:

I've searched through previous posts and no one has ever described TV as a rendering engine, which incidently is a completly different thing to a Graphics engine (Which TV has and is correctly described as being).

All Cad software I have worked with deal directly with a Graphics API (Normally OpenGL) for scene management, It's only when rendering an image that the software tends to employ its own raytracing (or Rendering engine).

[Xanatus]

I've searched through previous posts and no one has ever described TV as a rendering engine, which incidently is a completly different thing to a Graphics engine (Which TV has and is correctly described as being).

Good point... by doing a research i found out that you are right and iam a idiot as well as this thread is getting pointless :oops: . Anyway, graphic engine isnt true at all because tv3d can do much more than just drawing graphics. Well now i think the easiest calling for tv3d would be simply "3D Engine" becasue everything else is just to untrue for this kind of engine.

sorry for the misunderstanding and crap i posted  :oops:

All Cad software I have worked with deal directly with a Graphics API (Normally OpenGL) for scene management, It's only when rendering an image that the software tends to employ its own raytracing (or Rendering engine).

I don't think so. Any of our partner products as well as all the leading 3d cad software products i know are using a rendering engine (most popular rendering engine: parasolid). Using directy one of the rendering api's whould be a pain.

[AriusMyst]

Well now i think the easiest calling for tv3d would be simply "3D Engine" becasue everything else is just to untrue for this kind of engine.

Well yea, thats what i would call it.

I think this argument, in the other threads too, about wether tv is a game engine or not is pointless. I know of some people who just think its a nice dx wrapper with a few extra features. The main point is, it works well, its quick, an it does what i want it too. Who cares what anybody calls it? - it works for my needs.

[JohnPierre]

lol, i didn't really feel like arguing, i was just board cause my mom grounded me for a week and won't let me go hang out with my friends.  Thats the only reason i even bothered posting on one of these engine comparision discussions  :wink: Honestly, i agree with what arius said.  Does it really matter what it is?  As long as i can use it, and it works good and is powerful, then im not really going to question it.  I do think 3D engine somes it up best though cause that really leaves it open to your interpretation as well as giving it few limitations.  Lol, thats really what this discussion was though, a lot of interpretations.  

sorry for the misunderstanding and crap i posted

hey, xanatus, that is not crap, you made a lot of valid points, and certainly made me think about it.  personally, i think there is very little that can be posted and considered crap.  (note there are a few exceptions).  But really, i enjoyed reading all this, it of course was pointless in the long run, but it was fun doing it.  Plus, i don't think anyone got pissed off, so there is a plus.

well, fun arguing with everyone, see ya

jp

p.s. i'd never even heard of a rendering engine before this discussion, so it is true, you do learn something new each day