New RPG

[AaronE]

The below was originally posted in another section, but got deleted.  If an admin does see this, will you repost the relevant responses that were deleted from the original thread so that no one will have to retype their responses?  The original thread was called "How far."  Please and thank you!  I've been writing like crazy all night.  I wrote about 9 pages of stuff while I was at work last night.  I'm very excited about getting this going.  I like what I've seen of the 6.5 game engine, and I'm pretty sure that I will decide on the TV3d engine.  

Thanks for the fast replies guys.  I really like seeing an active community.  
Some more specific questions:

1. Can the engine be programmed to handle large amounts of active entities on the screen at once and still run decently?  As in a large scale melee/gun battle like a combo of Braveheart and WW2?  I have some ideas about how to pull this off.  A simple program could be executed to determine outcomes of each individual encounter outside of the player's immediate field of view.  I want to put the player into an all out full scale in your face battle where his combat prowess can have a meaningful affect on the outcome.  

2.  Can the engine be programmed to have unlimited view distance?  Can it seamlessly load new areas while still actively playing in one?  

let's put our forces together and remake oblivion, but then 10x better.

I don't plan to program the game myself.  I will be doing the primary design and project lead.  I can also do texturing and other art.  I want to build a team of talented people and make a truly new and unique commercial product.  I am a lifetime gamer that has so many ideas about how games could be that would take things to a whole new level.  I find myself often getting bored with games even though I really love to play them.  What I see in games almost everywhere is that the player happens to the game world.  If you weren't there, not a damn thing would happen.  The world wouldn't crumble or prosper or even move.  I will be creating a game where the world and the player happen to each other and everything else within them.  I want the world to breathe.  I'm not naive.  I know this will take a lot of work to do, as far as design and programming, but I'm ok with that.  Oh, and it won't be a midevil fantasy world, lol.  I plan to create a whole new setting to further liven things up.  This will be a single player RPG.  Depending on the complexity, I may consider adding support for player run shards like Ultima 7 has.  I have barely scratched the surface of what I have in mind, but it will be a powerful jolt to gaming at large.  

What I am proposing to anyone who is interested is the chance for a major payouts.  I don't have startup capital to host an office and pay hourly employees.  I don't feel that is necessary anyway.  I don't want employess.  I want to "work" with people who choose to be there and truly enjoy the moment by moment process of creating something.  So how will you get paid?  I will offer percentage amounts of gross income after taxes.  Say you stick with the project to completion as a programmer, and we agree on and sign a contract stating that upon release of the game, you will receive 3 percent of lifetime sales.  If you did some work and left (coming and going will be fully up to you here) you will receive a percetage dependent upon the work that you did do.  If the game sells 250,000 copies at an average price of $40, you make 300,000.  If it sells 1 million copies, you make 1.2 million bucks.  I will be doing my own things for money during the production, which means I won't get paid either until the game ships.  No startup capital means that employees can be paid extremely well if they can wait until the project is complete.  This is because usually so much money is dumped into the pockets of those who fund the company, and also into acquiring an expensive engine, and then a significant amount of money just sits in the companies bank account after the project.  I like the idea of creating a project and using the money to pay the people who made it, and paying them WELL.  A percentage will be reserved to pay the publisher and manufacturer, and cover any marketing and legal costs.  After those costs, I may get together the primary people who worked on the game and vote on what to do with what is left over.  We could purchase a new engine and go it again, or just divide the money up amongst everyone who took part and then part ways.  Just for an idea of how far this could go, Oblivion had shipped 1.7 million copies as of April 10th.  So guys, here is your chance for a grass roots effort to change gaming forever and get rich or at least make a lot of money doing it.  You can't easily get rich working for someone else, so you have to work for yourself.  Think of yourself as a contractor rather than an employee.  You will be paid according to project or amount of work completed, rather than any hourly crap (which couldn't be verified anyway without working in an office).  

Hehe, I love thinking outside of the box.  Let me know if you do and want to join me and we will talk.  
Aaron

P.S.  Can you guys give me some estimated guesses on how big of a team this may take?

[synedsylle]

You will need a big team for sure , your idea for the crpg is good , i am working on a rpg , it hard work , i am at around 2k of page done , story design map etc , i am presently working on a script engine and a new conversation engine ( a more realistic one ) i dont like the oblivion one

[Rynus_Rein]

I think any serious project is hard work.

[rootsage]

Oh yeah, hard work for sure. There are a ton of things that go into a game.

[potato]

I'm going to try and repost what I had yesterday, though it'll probably be shorter

To start, I don't think you're in a position to create anything that rivals Oblivion. You don't seem to have *any* game development experience whatsoever - a lifetime of playing games does not make you a game developer, not even close.

There is more to creating games than the components. You can bring together as many people as you would like, but without experience you're doomed. Start small, work up. Make a tetris clone with a twist (TetriNET!), Pong with gravity wells, something of that sort. Your first project should NOT be an Oblivion-smashing game.

Like I mentioned last time I posted this: this is like trying to win a gold medal in the Olympics, but having NEVER done the sport before, having no training, and no practice. Learn to crawl before you run.

Here are some more specific crits on your idea:

1 - Talented artists don't work for free. Perhaps if you were a renowned game designer with a history and portfolio of great games, they would. But someone in your position, who seemingly has nothing concrete to offer the team, cannot demand the participation and commitment of highly skilled artists and programmers.

2 - What *do* you offer to this project? We see many people like you, Aaron, people with a lot of grandiose ideas but no means to pull them off. The problem here is, the majority of people can come up with some decent ideas for games - ideas are a dime a dozen, they are essentially worthless; what matters is the ability to get it done. Now, "game designer" - what are your qualifications or experience? I think you're severely underestimating the difficulty of that job. It's very common for us to see people come in with the sole intention of being the "idea man", but contribute nothing concrete to the project - code, art, music, whatever.

3 - You cannot guarantee a major payout. You cannot even claim that you have a SMALL chance of a major payout. You are severely overestimating the profitability of games. Your math is derived from a lack of knowledge of how it works:

3a - For the first part, the average game sells fewer than 20,000 copies. A 250,000 title is a large hit that comes along only once in a while. As a first-time developer (or even as an experienced one) you better be praying VERY VERY hard to expect those numbers, and hope the Big Guy is going to hook you up. 1 million copies is essentially UNHEARD of save the odd exception (Starcraft comes to mind), and even then the majority of the copies were not sold at the introductory full retail price.

3b - Publisher stakes are a LOT higher than you might imagine. A typical take of 20% is already pretty high for a developer, though not unheard of. Lower rates are common. So of a $40 game you're looking at maximally $8 of revenue for your studio.

3c - A game of Oblivion's size is a FULL-TIME 60hrs/week effort for multiple YEARS. At part time, after-work, how long do you think this will take you? And if you say "we'll just recruit MORE people", think about the project management side of it. Are you a qualified project manager? Do you realize the sheer impossibility of managing teams that will necessarily consist of 200-odd people?

3d - No startup capital means you go nowhere. Do you have a legal copy of Visual Studio? 3dsmax? Maya? Photoshop? Or do you intend to build this big commercial success of yours on pirated software? Even without a physical office there is still a MASSIVE cost to developing this game of yorus. Or *gasp* can you do it all in Blender and Dev-CPP?

3e - "Acquiring an expensive engine" is a cost-saving measure, believe it or not. The whole point of buying an engine is because it would cost you MORE to develop it yourself, if you have the means to begin with. I'd suggest doing some REAL research into the business of gaming, and you will realize that fat-cat investors aren't taking all your money, and there's not gold bullion sitting in the studio bank vault. It's a business like any other, and you're not exploiting some secret unknown loophole to make everyone rich.

[newborn]

Continue dreaming, the world needs people like you!

[AaronE]

Hey Potato, I appreciate your posting, especially since you had to type all of that twice!  This provides me with some valuable information, and also allows me to clarify some things.  
First thing is that mentioning Oblivion in the first place wasn't the most useful way to introduce my idea.  That brings up all kinds of ideas about me being off my rocker, lol.  I did know that oblivion took about 3 years with a staff of 40-50 people before I even thought this idea up, so I've kept the scale of something like that in mind.  I just mentioned that game because I do like some elements of it, and there is basically not too much else in the realm of deep first person RPGs to compare things to.  Oblivion underwhelms with a mass of all these disconnected from anything the player cares about side quests.  They filled up 200 hours of game time with them and a ton of mundane locations that don't mean anything to the game's story or have any significance to the player.  They have few truly interesting characters and a lack of things that really make the player care about and get into the game world.  They went for this massive thing that took so many people and so much time rather than making the inspired gem that it could have been.  Thats fine, they did do some great things, but the game doesn't "feel" very inspired.  The melee combat is very kick ass though.  The only reason that I feel that making a great game with no start up cost is possible is because there are so many talented people in modding communities for so many different games just doing this stuff because they really love it.  I want to work with those people.  I would love to see them rewarded for their creations.  
As far as funding the publishing and product manufacturing, people come running when you have something great and inspired.  Look at all the attention project offset has garnered, just by being original and looking good.  They now charge 500,000 for their engine.  I just asked them a couple days ago.  

I don't have any game development experience.  People have been doing things sucessfully that they know nothing about since humanity came about.  Its about getting together people with different skill sets.  This will take me finding one or two experienced people that believe in what I want to do and choosing to do it with me.  I will manage the people and get deep into the functioning of things.  They would help with keeping me from reaching for Jupiter in some aspects if we only have the resources to reach for the Moon.  If it comes down to it, I will learn what I need to to get this done aside from being the "idea man."  I know talented artists and am one myself.  

What you said about "ideas are a dime a dozen, they are essentially worthless; what matters is the ability to get it done."  Is totally correct.  Its one of the things that I learned studying business.  It takes execution intelligence.  What I don't have or can't do, I want to bring people to my team that can.  Get together a small core of people, maybe 4-5, that will have enough execution intelligence together to complete this.  And then bring in supporting team members that want to work with us.  

As far as the payout, I'm not even going to suggest a guarantee.  I was posting numbers to let people know what is possible, how far things could go.  This industry now makes more money than the film industry annually, but why aren't programmers and artists getting rich or at least making a lot of money?  There are reasons for this, and I plan to change this trend for my team.  Even if we don't sell 250,000 copies, a much larger percentage than normal will be going into the pockets of the people who built the game.  Fat cat investors ARE taking all the money, just like in any business(not that there is anything wrong with that as someone has to take on the risk of loosing a bunch of cash on something that could potentially flop).  This industry makes so much money now, but people aren't getting paid all that well (at least compared to the film industry A list.  Not that I think I can make every person who works on this rich or anything, but paid quite well for their time).  There are ways to change this, and I will be looking more at what can be done as the project goes along.  

There are excellent alternatives to photoshop.  Are you guys all using all pirated stuff to make your games here?  Aren't there GNU alternatives to 3ds max and Maya?  I assumed that there were because they seem to have quality GNU versions of just about everything.  I don't pirate stuff, I use quality free programs.  

Continue dreaming, the world needs people like you!

Thanks Newborn.  I will keep on dreaming and begin executing.  Even if this wouldn't make any money, I will do it anyway because it would be a great experience.  I will be financially independent soon, and am going to start sleeping polyphasically again, so I will have about 22 out of 24 hours a day to use as I choose.  That is a lot of time to do a lot of "work" that I am in love with.  So guys, the offer is still open.  If you are interested in hearing more about what I want to do, let me know and we'll schedule a text group chat in AIM for sometime next week and share ideas.  

Thanks for the replies guys.  
Aaron

[potato]

There are excellent alternatives to photoshop. Are you guys all using all pirated stuff to make your games here? Aren't there GNU alternatives to 3ds max and Maya? I assumed that there were because they seem to have quality GNU versions of just about everything. I don't pirate stuff, I use quality free programs.

If there is anything open-source sucks at, it is usability. GNU alternatives to 3dsmax and Maya? Blender comes to mind. But keep in mind that Blender will make you wish you weren ever born. Are there QUALITY replacements to the $3-4K software packages that game studios buy? Nope, I would dare say there are none.

Is it possible for the open-source community to come together and make something? Yeah, but nobody's done it yet.

I think this is an example of you not knowing the full extent of what you're getting into The things you are proposing, and the questions you are asking, are the same as all developers have asked themselves at some point or another. "Is there a free (good) alternative to 3dsmax?" "Do I really have to buy this copy of Photoshop?" The answer to both these questions is "Yes", but you will have to convince yourself of that, since I don't think I can do it for you.

Even if we don't sell 250,000 copies, a much larger percentage than normal will be going into the pockets of the people who built the game.

Obviously. A regular studio has to keep profit for itself in order to fund the next project (in the case of privately-owned developers), and also for investors (in the case of publicly traded companies). A "company" with no anticipated future can afford to give away every last penny it earns. Nonetheless, the percentage cut a developer receives, ESPECIALLY a first-time developer with no track record, is obscenely small. Remember that a smash-hit is not borne of being a good game alone, but also of marketing, and good luck convincing any publisher to throw major marketing dolalrs behind your game, considering all of your team will be consisted of amateurs with no record.

IMHO (feel free to disagree) you're not giving experience enough credence. Can an untrained shooter fire a gun? Yes. Can an untrained shooter fire a gun and hit a target 500 yards away? Not a bloody chance. In your case you're lining up 200 untrained shooters, ordering them to fire, and expecting all of the shots to hit.

People may have been doing things successfully that they know nothing about, but it is a slow and gradual process. I without any mountain climbing experience can go climb that little mountain nearby. But what you're trying to do is climb Mt. Everest on the first go. If you have no experience, get some experience.

BTW, $500K for an engine is quite steep, especially if your tools aren't up to par. It's not about looking great (which seems to be the amateur's ruler for measuring good engines), it also comes down to toolset, workflow, pipeline, and all the other things that make your life easier instead of tougher. The Offset guys better have some incredibly revolutionary tools that will shave MONTHS off the dev cycle if they want to justify charging twice as much as UE3.

One thing you shoudl be aware of - the modding community you speak of has been trying (and failing) to execute your business model for years, ever since HL1 came out. Thousands have tried, none have succeeded. This whole "work on the game for free with me, and we'll all split at the end!" thing has been done to DEATH, which is why I approach your idea with a more than healthy dose of skepticism. As a general comment on the people in the mod communities: what they possess in artistic talent and skill they lack in dedication and employability. The exceptions to that rule are the ones that make successful mods, but remember that for every Counter-Strike and Natural Selection you see, there are literally thousands of failed mods with thousands of people behind them.

But nonetheless. I was there in the heyday of HL1 modding, and I got my scrapes and bruises and learned this the hard way. So I say, there is no harm in trying except disappointment at the end, and it would certainly be valuable experience in any case. Go ahead and fly with this idea, just expect it to be a good lesson in game development and not your gravy train.

[newborn]

Yes Aaron, always keep us posted!

People tends to get more excited and enclined to invest themselves in a project when that project seems doable... with some screenshots and/or art to propose, I'm sure you'll get a better response over time.

Also, the little info you gave us will not make anyone fly... lots of people passed by and stated more or less the same things you did... and dissapeared afterwards. The only that will make the difference between them and you is you guts and willpower.

I'm not saying that your project is impossible to achieve, I'm just stating the fact that you're going for a very long shot on this project and I would personally start with something smaller to get a grip on what a "real" project (like the one you're proposing) is really implicating.

There are some key ressource people on this forum that could help you out... you'll have to find them and get them interested in your project! Keep your chin up, stay awake and keep youself cool even when people are flaming you!

[potato]

Hey hey hey I don't consider my post a flame Constructive criticism.

I would echo newborn and say that you should go ahead and do this. Personally I think you won't succeed, but even in failure you will learn a great deal about development and be THAT much more prepared for your next project. Some things can only be learned first-hand.

[AaronE]

I choose to do this because I enjoy the process of creating it.  With that choice, I let go of the need to make money with it.  If money happens, then it does.  Ok, now with that out of the way, I don't have to take up my time on the project with anything other than creating the project and bringing together the people who would like to work it with me.  Thanks for the support in the ways you gave it.  
I have some questions:

When I first started thinking about what it would be like to make this game, the Serious Sam 2 engine was what I wanted to work with because it was programmed so well that it ran better with beautiful graphics and more going on than any game I had ever seen.  That engine would be my first choice for what I want to do.  Say I develope this game and complete it using their free editor, can I then buy a license and sell it even though I made it for free?  Or do they own the rights to it since I made it for free?  Can I make a completely new game with an editor like that, or do I need more than is provided for free?  I asked them these questions, but they never responded to my email.
Thanks

[potato]

All the content you produce with the editor belongs to you, though there may be legalities in terms of COMMERCIAL distribution of this work.

With an editor your players will need copies of Serious Sam to play whatever you have created, I doubt anyone would complain if you released your game this way - though in that case it is considered a mod.

I'm sure they would sell you a license after-the-fact, but even then there is still some coding required to package your work as a standalone game.